Its a vehicle thats a troop choice!

[kendaop]

While I agree that it probably wasn't intended to be taken as an undedicated transport, I don't see any RAW reason as to why it couldn't. Its entry in the codex doesn't say that it must be taken as a dedicated transport, and it otherwise appears to be identical to other unit entries, so I would say that it would be legal. Like others have pointed out, I don't know why anyone would WANT to do it, but I don't see any reason to forbid it. Besides, Tau are so weak right now...what's the harm?

[Sami]

Except the unit entry is subtlety different to the other Troops ones, i.e. it says "transport" down the left of the unit rather than "troops"

[ehlijen]

While I agree that it probably wasn't intended to be taken as an undedicated transport, I don't see any RAW reason as to why it couldn't. Its entry in the codex doesn't say that it must be taken as a dedicated transport, and it otherwise appears to be identical to other unit entries, so I would say that it would be legal. Like others have pointed out, I don't know why anyone would WANT to do it, but I don't see any reason to forbid it. Besides, Tau are so weak right now...what's the harm?

The harm is that it doesn't actually help the Tau anyway. It'd still not be scoring (and neither would any drones it comes with). And honestly, it won't help the Tau player get over his percieved weakness of the fire warriors. He still needs to take one unit of them and he still should take more troops units to actually take objectives with (ie probably Kroot). So the Devilfish being a troops choice (which just to be clear it isn't, as has been stated several times along with why: it says 'transport' next to it, not 'troops' like it does for the actual troops choices) wouldn't do anything but encourage self destructive list writing with one minimal scoring unit and the unjustified hope that a super suit army actually has the weight of fire to wipe out the enemy as that'd be it's only course towards victory left.

You don't like firewarriors? That's unfortunate, but there is still Kroot who make quite decent troops. With the Ox they can even take heavy weapons in the squad.

[kendaop]

Except the unit entry is subtlety different to the other Troops ones, i.e. it says "transport" down the left of the unit rather than "troops"

Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything. If it said "Warhammer 40,000" down at the left, instead of "Transport" would you assume that the codex was trying to place the Devilfish into a "Warhammer 40,000" category? Of course not; it's just an artistic rendering. Nowhere in the codex or in the rulebook does it define what the little words written vertically on the side of the codex pages means. But the fact still remains that the Devilfish is listed under the Troops category, just as the Hammerhead is listed in the Heavy Suppory category. Would you deny a Tau player the right to deploy a Hammerhead as its own, undedicated unit? (serious question)

The harm is that it doesn't actually help the Tau anyway. It'd still not be scoring (and neither would any drones it comes with). And honestly, it won't help the Tau player get over his percieved weakness of the fire warriors. He still needs to take one unit of them and he still should take more troops units to actually take objectives with (ie probably Kroot). So the Devilfish being a troops choice (which just to be clear it isn't, as has been stated several times along with why: it says 'transport' next to it, not 'troops' like it does for the actual troops choices) wouldn't do anything but encourage self destructive list writing with one minimal scoring unit and the unjustified hope that a super suit army actually has the weight of fire to wipe out the enemy as that'd be it's only course towards victory left.

You don't like firewarriors? That's unfortunate, but there is still Kroot who make quite decent troops. With the Ox they can even take heavy weapons in the squad.

Like I said in my previous post, I agree that it doesn't really HELP the Tau, but if someone wants to take an undedicated Devilfish, that's his right. If he creates an inferior list because of it, that's his fault.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything.

Well, that's a nice, general purpose argument. "If I ignore the rules I don't agree with, then the rules agree with me!" So what?

If it said "Warhammer 40,000" down at the left, instead of "Transport" would you assume that the codex was trying to place the Devilfish into a "Warhammer 40,000" category?

Of course - after all, it is. It's certainly not a Warhammer Fantasy Battle unit.

[kendaop]

Well, that's a nice, general purpose argument. "If I ignore the rules I don't agree with, then the rules agree with me!" So what?

Of course - after all, it is. It's certainly not a Warhammer Fantasy Battle unit.

I'm not sure what rule you think I'm ignoring. Can you point me to a page number and quote? And besides, it's better than "If I make up rules to support what I want, then the rules agree with me!"

And last I checked, there wasn't a unit classification called "Warhammer 40,000". Of course, we do have "Troops" and "HQ". We also have "Fast Attack" and "Elites". But, I'm not familiar with units classified as "Warhammer 40,0000".

[DoctorTom]

I'm not sure what rule you think I'm ignoring. Can you point me to a page number and quote? And besides, it's better than "If I make up rules to support what I want, then the rules agree with me!"

And last I checked, there wasn't a unit classification called "Warhammer 40,000". Of course, we do have "Troops" and "HQ". We also have "Fast Attack" and "Elites". But, I'm not familiar with units classified as "Warhammer 40,0000".

Perhaps that's because you made up the whole thing entirely? There are "troops" and "HQ", and there are also "transports". When other units in the section say "Troops" and there's a unit that says "Transport" but not "troops", then maybe you shouldn't assume that it's a troop.

[kendaop]

Perhaps that's because you made up the whole thing entirely? There are "troops" and "HQ", and there are also "transports". When other units in the section say "Troops" and there's a unit that says "Transport" but not "troops", then maybe you shouldn't assume that it's a troop.

Yes, I made it up. That's the point. Without definition from the rulebook or codex, one word (which is not given any context, and is not even included in a full sentence) that's written in a fancy script to add to the artistic look of the codex is causing you to say that it can't be taken as a Troops choice, even though it is clearly included in the Troops section?

Again, I'd like to ask for a page number and quote for where it says that it can only be taken as a dedicated transport.

[DoctorTom]

Yes, I made it up. That's the point. Without definition from the rulebook or codex, one word (which is not given any context, and is not even included in a full sentence) that's written in a fancy script to add to the artistic look of the codex is causing you to say that it can't be taken as a Troops choice, even though it is clearly included in the Troops section?

Again, I'd like to ask for a page number and quote for where it says that it can only be taken as a dedicated transport.

One word not given in context? Surely you jest. The context is that every other unit in the book has the type of unit listed next to it - troop, HQ, Elite, etc. All that is listed next to the vehicle is "Transport". I'd say that you have all the context that you need right there.

[Sarge.au]

I'm going to have to side with Kendaop here. Just as a land raider isn't a dedicated transport, neither is a devilfish, it simply has the ability to transport, but it is a light tank, which can be taken on its own if the player so wishes.

[Grentain]

Land Raiders are dedicated transports in Blood Angels, and if I recall, they're not a heavy support choice, or any other choice.

[Sarge.au]

I only brought up Land Raiders because someone mentioned they followed the same rules, but the point still stands, a devilfish is not a dedicated transport.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Amusingly, the argument isn't even over whether the Devilfish is a dedicated transport (it definitely is) but rather over whether it's just a dedicated transport. You're just out in left field somewhere, Sarge.au.

[Sarge.au]

You know what I meant.

[Kwi'Kwag]

Ah, love the debate here.

Go ahead and take the Devilfish as a troop choice, love it, be my guest.

Pg. 90 of the Rule book says a scoring unit can never be: a vehicle, have the swarm rule or say it is not scoring.

Just like rippers and other worthless troop choices that are not scoring - good luck telling me a Devilfish is not a "vehicle".

[ehlijen]

The only possible benefit a non dedicated devilfish would have is letting Kroot start the game inside it, but that limits you to fairly small Kroot units and means you've bought a second troops choice already with the kroot.

[Fithos]

Can I take a Wave Serpent on it's own? As far as I can tell it is listed in the Elites section with a little heading labeled Transport over it, but that's ok because transport isn't defined anywhere so it should just be in whatever section the entry lies, correct?

[steelshark]

Wow... there's a lot of "assuming" going on.

Do we also assume that the Devilfish can transport Stealth Suits? Since it only states that the Devilfish cannot transport "Troops" in XV-Suits, while the Stealths are "Elites" in XV-Suits, and Crisis are ok too for that matter?
Or do we have to assume that the DF can't transport Kroot (even less then 12) because they do not have a special entry like FW's and PF's?

It's pretty clear there are 2 valid FOC choices (FW, PF) that can or have to take a DF, but taking one "standalone" smells of cheese.
br,
Steel

[don_mondo]

I only brought up Land Raiders because someone mentioned they followed the same rules, but the point still stands, a devilfish is not a dedicated transport.

Fine. it's not a dedicated transport. Neither is it a Troops unit as it clearly does not have the word Troops down the side as the other troops units do. So that puts it outside the force org entirely, I guess it's just a fluff entry that they threw in for no reason. That's the only place YOUR line of reasoning leads to.

Or you just use a little intelligence and realize yeah, it's a dedicated transport.

[kendaop]

One word not given in context? Surely you jest. The context is that every other unit in the book has the type of unit listed next to it - troop, HQ, Elite, etc. All that is listed next to the vehicle is "Transport". I'd say that you have all the context that you need right there.

It's listed under the troops section, and since there is no definition for what that one hard-to-read word in the corner actually means (especially since it doesn't make sense in the context that everyone wants to apply to it), it should be played as any other Troops choice.

Ah, love the debate here.

Go ahead and take the Devilfish as a troop choice, love it, be my guest.

Pg. 90 of the Rule book says a scoring unit can never be: a vehicle, have the swarm rule or say it is not scoring.

Just like rippers and other worthless troop choices that are not scoring - good luck telling me a Devilfish is not a "vehicle".

No one's saying the Devilfish isn't a vehicle. It's explicitly listed in the unit entry. Additionally, no one said it was a good idea to take an undedicated Devilfish, just that the option is there, should anyone want to do it.

Fine. it's not a dedicated transport. Neither is it a Troops unit as it clearly does not have the word Troops down the side as the other troops units do. So that puts it outside the force org entirely, I guess it's just a fluff entry that they threw in for no reason. That's the only place YOUR line of reasoning leads to.
Or you just use a little intelligence and realize yeah, it's a dedicated transport.

As above.
Also, as it stands, you and are arguing that the Devilfish falls outside the FOC, as there is no "Transport" FOC entry. In you infinite intelligence, please explain how THAT isn't just a "fluff entry that they threw in for no reason".

Thanks for playing.