Anyone who ever uses the word hater, READ THIS ARTICLE NOW.

[iamfanboy]

Prove a decline?

Ok, Seimens, challenge accepted. I can do it in less than 50 words

GW's prices are a median of 50% higher than they were 5 years ago. Their income has stayed steady at around 120m. If they were not declining (with fewer customers buying less items), their income would be 50% higher than it was 5 years ago.

[Gingerwerewolf]

I have never used the term hater or any of the other derogatory terms that the posters dislike here. But that could just be that I dont do it because I dont like being the receiving end of that sort of thing. The Gingerwerewolf name is quite accurate :P and in most of the world that gets you picked upon, which is somewhat unpleasant.

However there are times when I read a post and think, good lord that is a massively negative reaction to GW. There is more than just "This isnt for me" it comes across as GW are **** and <insert huge rant of Hatred here>

If that's the way that you feel then so be it. If it makes you feel better to get it out then crack on. Issue forth with your rant / speech / list of facts.

But people will react to those posts in certain ways, and as part of that you have to understand that as much as they are idiots for replying "Hater's gonna hate" or similar, that you, by ranting have opened yourself up to that response because of what the Internet is:

a) Its Anonymity made manifest.
and
b) All written word is read with whatever emotion the reader wants to put into it.

You can say what you want, when you want, how you want with little to no comeback. 5 stone weaklings can do the virtual equivalent of b!tchslapping a 21 stone Brick Sh!thouse and laugh away because nothing will come of it.

It doesnt matter how you wrote the post, if the reader thinks that you are negative, then it will be read as negative as words are emotionless by themselves. Even, to an extent ignoring what you have said / disregarding it.

Its the problem with Forums.

However back on subject:

Hate is a strong word and I would agree because of its negative connotations Hater and the like are seen more often that Fanbois or similar. Its not nice and its not fair and I for one will do my very best not to ever use it or insinuate it in the future.

I do agree that you are right, that GW doesnt care about the older Gamers. We are not the Target Demographic. We all know what their Target Demographic is, so why are we fighting it?

All I put it down to is the fact that we still love the models / Fluff / Games or whatever.

Most of the people here who are not haters are either still in their Honeymoon period, or (to continue relationship theme) they have settled into a massively long term relationship where they love the Company enough to let the problems slide. It appears that you lot of the more vocally negative towards them are in the Splitting up phase, or the Not letting it go phase of the relationship. You care but feel jilted in return.

So you, as the person who wants to rant about how Evil and so forth GW are, has to be aware that at the same time as they may find like minded people on the internet, that you are talking to the new lovers of GW. And like any new relationship, you automatically Hate the Ex that came before.

Which is somewhat of an irony eh?

As an aside, I do not think that GW's execs are riding GW into the ground. Ive worked for retail all my life and the last thing the head honcho's want to do is make their shop / chain fail. And this is coming from a man who works for a company who hired the ex finance director of Woolworths. They do want every bit of Profit. But so that they can make more profit next year, and the year after and so on...

[Gingerwerewolf]

Prove a decline?

Ok, Seimens, challenge accepted. I can do it in less than 50 words

GW's prices are a median of 50% higher than they were 5 years ago. Their income has stayed steady at around 120m. If they were not declining (with fewer customers buying less items), their income would be 50% higher than it was 5 years ago.

Sorry dude but its not that simple

Rates, Rent, Cost of Living, Cost of Ownership, Petrol and Distribution costs, growth and all that Jazz has shot up in the UK over the last 5 years. Property on average has gone up in value by 10's to 100's of Thousands and Renting said Property has gone up in similar ways.

Thus the Amount of money 5 years ago to run a business, is not the same as it is today by a massive margin. The company I work for has NONE of the innovation costs (Moulds creation costs etc) that GW has, and it in the last 5 years has had a growth of about 10% per year, and is one of the most identifiable brands on the high street and in considered to be absolutely amazing, beating all predictions. However We have not opened up a single store, nor changed our turnover of staff or anything. We've just concentrated on growing and saving money where we can.

[RanaldLoec]

I dislike GW pricing.

I dislike Privateer Press (PP) pricing.

I love GW games

I love PP games.

I'm not a fan boy I'm not a hater I'm a Wargaming Hobbyist with an opinion.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

I think that the extract posted in the opening post of this thread is EXACTLY how I feel about GW. Glad I'm not alone, however I doubt the older generation parting ways with GW will have any great impact...

How many people are you going to share Warhammer with now? What about your kids? Their friends? ... ... no? We all make a difference.

I dislike GW pricing.

I dislike Privateer Press (PP) pricing.

I love GW games

I love PP games.

I'm not a fan boy I'm not a hater I'm a Wargaming Hobbyist with an opinion.

Yay for some objective sensibility!

But people will react to those posts in certain ways, and as part of that you have to understand that as much as they are idiots for replying "Hater's gonna hate" or similar, that you, by ranting have opened yourself up to that response because of what the Internet is:

a) Its Anonymity made manifest.
and
b) All written word is read with whatever emotion the reader wants to put into it.

...[snip]...

It doesnt matter how you wrote the post, if the reader thinks that you are negative, then it will be read as negative as words are emotionless by themselves. Even, to an extent ignoring what you have said / disregarding it.

Its the problem with Forums.

a) These forums aren't really all that anonymous. In the 1 and 1/2 years that I've been here, I've assigned a personality to Hastings, Reinholt, Iamfanboy, Tonny, EmperorNorton, loveless, Vipoid, AlexHolker, Iron Puritain, Verm1s, and others. I have a better idea of who these people are than I do about my younger brother's girlfriend. And I've seen her before. I know roughly where some of these posters live. I know what some of them did in college. I know who among them owns shops, who visits GW Greenwich Village, who sculpts, plays tyranids, plays sisters of battle, who has a level head, who is likely to exaggerate, and who is likely to piss me off. I may not know them by their real names, but to me they're real people.

Respect.

The internet is not anonymous. Some people just say mean things sometimes.

b) There's a reason forums are moderated. Language by itself can illicit a wide range of emotions. As can symbols. If I see the n***** word, how am I supposed to react? If I see a swastika on an imperial guardsman, how am I supposed to react? Am I supposed to just say, "Oh, I'm the one applying meaning here." No!

How is Iamfanboy supposed to feel when Tonny tells the warseer community

On the otherhand people like Iamfanboy will continue to bitch and moan...

You can't honestly expect Iamfanboy to step back and say, "Oh, he doesn't think my opinion is invalid. I'm just reading that in."

Written word carries meaning from one context to another. Certain meanings are universally understood by author and audience. Communication is successful when the author's intended meaning is in line with the reader's understanding of his words.

Obligatory XKCD

[samiens]

Prove a decline?

Ok, Seimens, challenge accepted. I can do it in less than 50 words

GW's prices are a median of 50% higher than they were 5 years ago. Their income has stayed steady at around 120m. If they were not declining (with fewer customers buying less items), their income would be 50% higher than it was 5 years ago.

Apart from misspelling my username (naughty!) all you've shown is revenue is stable and a suspected (but not substatiated) reduction in the customer base (also explained by individuals buying less potentially). Companies live and die on money not selling more units for less profit per unit. So you've shown a company not growing- that's all. Challenge failed im afraid.

(Quite happy to accept a certain probability of a period in decline if it helps- but you deal in absolutes here, I tend not to).

Eitherway, im 28, I prefer to avoid insults like hater and fanboi, although I do occasionally comment on patterns of posting. My point is just that some, and far from all, generally negative commentators seem to imply 'i don't like company x's corporate management and so their product is bad' which is not a rational argument.

If nothing else I would rather listen to arguments based on why the product is poor (even not value for money though this is subjective) than hate aimed at corporate management (which is often based on conjecture)

[Tresidentevil]

The point of the forum is to share ideas and discuss. Hence it being called a forum. I don't think it's that bad for a few people to have a slight moan. There's a point at which it ceases to be useful dialogue though. Finding that balance is the key. I certainly won't let anybody change how I feel about the hobby. I like GW stuff, I largely avoid the RRP by using Indy retailers. I have the money. I usually refrain from buying for other reasons, like not wanting certain material units.

[Rick Blaine]

I would dare say that someone who does not play any GW games, does not buy any GW products but hangs out on a predominantly GW-focused forum for the sole purpose of telling everybody how awful GW is is a hater in the truest sense of the word. Not contributing anything to the hobby but more ill will in a ridiculous attempt to convince people that the way they're having fun is wrong and getting off on telling them that the game and the company are going down the drain.

[the anti santa]

ok, let's use an example from this very thread.

Starting with the part of Tonny's quote that was picked up on.

I think the opposite. GW is better than before. Their mini's are getting better and better. I am having great fun with Warhamme 8th edition and soon I will start again with 40K when 6th edition is released. I am still deciding which 40K army to start.

He is stating he thinks the miniatures are getting better, he's enjoying the newest edition of Fantasy and will start playing 40K again once 6th edition comes out. I'd call that a positive statement and perfectly reasonable.

EmperorNorton quotes the above and replied with.

This shows nicely what the critics find, well, criticizable.
At this point you cannot know whether 40K will be better thanks to 6th Edition than it was before. But instead of making an informed decision after its release you already have decided that you will start again no matter what.

So Tonny is criticisable for being positive about the newest edition of 40K and not making informed decisions. We have some information about 6th edition that may or may not be accurate, but I'm sure if Tonny found out that the rules cost £1000 or they brought in a rule that every time a model of your took a wound you had to punch yourself in the groin he might reconsider. Nowhere did he state he would get it no matter what.
6th edition is bound to have some rules the average gamers likes and others they dislike, I am sure as with 8th edition some will hate it and stop playing and others will love it. But having enjoyed 5th edition and the new rules shaking up the game plus the excitement of a new release then thinking it will be fun is perfectly logical. Does he really need to put in a bunch of caveats into that statement?

To this Tonny replies.

So what are you saying that it is a bad idea to start with 40K, because 6th edition will suck?

A little defensive but that's how human beings tend to react when criticised.

He then goes on to state that many on Warseer have already decided it will be rubbish based on the rumours we have heard, which is true and some have gone nuts on BOLS.

After that he mentions he will get the AOBR boxed set to combine with the rumoured marines in the new game to make a new plastic army that he will enjoy making and painting. Again based on the previous 2 GW boxed sets the models have been good quality plastics and at a reasonable price for GW. So even if 6th edition is utterly terrible he could still get enjoyment out of painting up the new models along with his AoBR ones.

Then he goes on to talk about other projects not all of which involve GW.

So again mostly focusing on the positive but a reply to direct criticism of his decision.

To this EmperorNorton replies with.

Not at all.
And that's exactly what this thread is about: somebody who dares to even suggest the possibility that something GW does might not be good is automatically labeled a hater by some people.

And Scaryscarymushroom says

But now you've swung over to the other side of the fence. You're attacking EmperorNorton's well-reasoned ideas by confusing them with an opinion that you don't even know EmperorNorton holds, and you seem to be attacking him because EmperorNorton clearly isn't a fanboy.

If he's not a fanboy, must he be a hater? These forums are so black and white. (Pun intended)

Plus shelfunit adds

I am truely struggling to find any mention of this either literally or implied in EN's posts on this thread*. At worst EN is critisizing the fact that Tonny is saying that 6th is going to be spectacular, brilliant and far superior to 5th ed** before anything is known (for certain) about the rules/gameplay etc. This is one of the dividing lines that illicit acusations of "fanboy-ism" - a perceived (even if not intended) view that because it is GW releasing something it must be both better than before and intrinsically fantastic without any actual "evidence".

Going by those standards it's no wonder some people are seeing the hater label being used at every turn.

Tonny states something positive about GW, is criticised for it, responds with his own criticism and suddenly he's accused of calling someone a hater and being a fanboy blindly defending all GW do.

Does no one else see the double standards?

p.s. Sorry to mainly pick on you Tonny and EmperorNorton but I was too lazy to find other threads and it gave me an excuse to stare at EN's avatar.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Tonny states something positive about GW, is criticised for it, responds with his own criticism and suddenly he's accused of calling someone a hater and being a fanboy blindly defending all GW do.

Lol @ staring at EN's avatar. I don't think Tonny is being criticized for stating something positive about GW. He's being criticized for what appeared to be a matter-of-fact no-two-ways-about-it proclamation that he WILL be playing 40k 6th edition. I read the quote you provided and I thought "Well, there's nothing in there that says he won't, even if it means selling his soul to the devil." What's more, he's being criticized by critics.[Edit] I read it again, and it appears that EN said nothing about whether Tonny was criticizable. Just that Tonny's overt proclamation that he'd play was a behavior critics would criticize. [/Edit] Is EN a critic? Did he ever say he was?

Now, I don't expect Tonny to actually play 6th if, every time he loses a game, he needs to cut off a finger. But he didn't say that he'd probably play. He didn't even say that he'd most likely play. Just that he would play.

But please, Tonny. Don't take it personally. Critics will criticize anything. Or put another way, infamously: "Haters gonna hate."

EmperorNorton has gracefully attempted to avoid showing any bias he might have, but he seems to have been confused with one of those critics. EN hasn't said anything that makes me think he's a hater. He just said that "Haters hate a specific behavior. The behavior haters hate is exemplified by the post above mine."

[EmperorNorton]

The Gingerwerewolf name is quite accurate :P and in most of the world that gets you picked upon, which is somewhat unpleasant.

Hang in there. One day the ostracism of lycanthropes will be a thing of the past.

Is EN a critic? Did he ever say he was?

I'm very enigmatic. You should put that in your personality profile.

[samiens]

If it helps, I will play 6th ed no matter what (bar an absurdam ad infinitum ruleset) but if I don't like it, ill probably both stop and not buy any more GW stuff. I enjoyed 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th ed so I don't really plan on waiting to see if im going to like 6th before buying it- ill buy it in good faith and then try it!

[xxRavenxx]

He's being criticized for what appeared to be a matter-of-fact no-two-ways-about-it proclamation that he WILL be playing 40k 6th edition. ............. Now, I don't expect Tonny to actually play 6th if, every time he loses a game, he needs to cut off a finger. But he didn't say that he'd probably play. He didn't even say that he'd most likely play. Just that he would play.

This is another staple of warseer though. People do not normally "legal up" when they speak and noone bothers to carefully cover their asses with explicitly worded statements.

I will make a statement: "I will play 6h edition 40k".

To any normal person the statement, when panned out would be: "I will play it, assuming normal parameters", meaning nothing shocking happens, like it being super expensive for no reason, me losing my eyes, dying, them requiring me to give a kidney to play, and so on and so forth.

To a select few on warseer, the statement is clearly and irrefutably accurate, and any attempt to elaborate is someone flipflopping and trying to wriggle free from the cunning observers who have "caught them out".

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Never underestimate the power of an absolute statement.

'Probably' is an awesome word, BTW. I should probably use it less often, though.

Consider how much freedom I'm giving myself when I make this statement:

I, Scaryscarymushroom, probably will not play 6th edition 40k.

Now consider how rigid this statement is:

I, Scaryscarymushroom, will not play 6th edition 40k.

Which of these statements is most inflammatory? Which is most likely to make me seem like a hypocrite if I buckle in and suffer from "gotta-have-it syndrome?"

Probably is an awesome word.

I'm very enigmatic. You should put that in your personality profile.

Done! But you weren't very clear on where I should put it exactly, so I decided to put it in my "Other Armies" list.

Edit: Oooh. I see what you did there. *Fixes personality profile.*

Edit Again: *sigh* It's hopeless. I just don't understand what you want me to do.

[shelfunit.]

ok, let's use an example from this very thread.

Starting with the part of Tonny's quote that was picked up on.


He is stating he thinks the miniatures are getting better, he's enjoying the newest edition of Fantasy and will start playing 40K again once 6th edition comes out. I'd call that a positive statement and perfectly reasonable.

EmperorNorton quotes the above and replied with.


So Tonny is criticisable for being positive about the newest edition of 40K and not making informed decisions. We have some information about 6th edition that may or may not be accurate, but I'm sure if Tonny found out that the rules cost £1000 or they brought in a rule that every time a model of your took a wound you had to punch yourself in the groin he might reconsider. Nowhere did he state he would get it no matter what.
6th edition is bound to have some rules the average gamers likes and others they dislike, I am sure as with 8th edition some will hate it and stop playing and others will love it. But having enjoyed 5th edition and the new rules shaking up the game plus the excitement of a new release then thinking it will be fun is perfectly logical. Does he really need to put in a bunch of caveats into that statement?

A fantastic example here of not reading posts and on the off chance they have been read completely missing any and all points made within. Tonny expresses his joy at 6th edition without knowing anything about it, EN states how can he be overwhelmingly positive about something he has no idea about and is therefore a "hater". Great work there anti santa.

To this Tonny replies.

A little defensive but that's how human beings tend to react when criticised.

A hostile reply clearly deliberately mis-representing ENs point and moving to the other extreme from the one he has taken. At no point did EN say that 6th would "suck", just expressing a desire that people would wait and see rather than jump to any conclusion without evidence one way or the other.

To this EmperorNorton replies with.


And Scaryscarymushroom says


Plus shelfunit adds

As above - also my reply was directed at you and your terrible interpretation of ENs reply.

Going by those standards it's no wonder some people are seeing the hater label being used at every turn.

Tonny states something positive about GW, is criticised for it, responds with his own criticism and suddenly he's accused of calling someone a hater and being a fanboy blindly defending all GW do.

Does no one else see the double standards?

The only double standards here are the ones given voice by your "commentary". Every single "attack" on Tonny is a hillariously poor, tunnel visioned interpretation of utterly non-aggressive posts. It amazes me how anyone could come to the conclusions you have without setting out to do so irrespective of the actual events. No where in this thread is Tonny described as a fanboy - saying someone has "accused" him of being one only realy works if it is true, which it clearly isn't. It really is no wonder the term "Hater" is being used so often with the shockingly bias, myopic and frankly low level of interpretation of some of the "Hate" accusers.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

A hostile reply clearly deliberately mis-representing ENs point...

(Emphasis mine)

Now, I'm not sure if any of that was deliberate.

I'll agree that it sounded pretty hostile.

[ewar]

Do you know what I find amusing?

Before reading this thread I had no opinion either way, I couldn't really care less who used daft school yard cliques like 'hater' or 'fanboy', but now... you guys have kind of convinced me you do actually hate GW. Which is weird, given it's just a faceless corporation. I just found out Thames Water are going to make me fit a water meter, which will mean no more hoses or crazy long hangover showers. Maybe I should start a flamewar against them too

[Torga_DW]

This whole thing is just an example of humans and human behaviour. Its the reason why the saying came about: never discuss politics or religion at the dinner table.

The main innovation of the internet is that people can express opinions and attitudes without the potential consequence of violence or being burned at the stake happening.

The rest is just flogging a dead horse.

[Vourne]

My god I only registered with Warseer today, and what a riveting read! I don't know whether laugh or cry at some of the posts here.

Are we not all here because of our love for war gaming, painting, modelling etc etc? For those people who are so critical and objective of GW and their practices, why are you here? Personally I don't like football, I don't like the way the FA operates or the vast sums of money premier league footballers earn, but I'm not going to register on some football forum and rant about it until I'm blue in the face.

At least I am not giving huge amounts of money to make a rich person who treats me with ignorance and/or contempt even richer!

Ianrak, everyone is guilty of this every day. When was the last time you bought a can of Coca-Cola, ate a McDonalds, went to the cinema, signed a new mobile phone contract? etc etc etc. All of which treat us with no less ignorance and/or contempt than the last.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Are we not all here because of our love for war gaming, painting, modelling etc etc? For those people who are so critical and objective of GW and their practices, why are you here? Personally I don't like football, I don't like the way the FA operates or the vast sums of money premier league footballers earn, but I'm not going to register on some football forum and rant about it until I'm blue in the face.

Welcome aboard. To answer your question: Yes. At least I think so. I can't speak for everyone, but it makes sense to me that we're all here because of our love for wargaming etc. Not just wargaming, but GW's wargames.

It's hard when the games we knew and loved are turning into something else. (Not that the new things are bad!!) And the company we knew and loved is also transforming. (Not necessarily bad either!!) That's why all the complaint.

If you went to a football forum, you'd probably see people that got really involved in the football community, and then their favorite team sold a player. Or two... or three... or more.
And those people might start rambling about how "Now, team 'x' sucks because they were completely disbanded and the management made a terrible mistake blah blah blah." It's the same sort of thing. We've been around the block and we care. But it's hard when GW institutes price hikes that no one understands every year, or you play with a army that hasn't had an update in 10 years and then, when it does get an update, you find that you preferred things about the old rules, old models and the old stories.

They continuously alienate their own consumer base by instituting changes that their aged** consumers don't care for much.

Ianrak, everyone is guilty of this every day. When was the last time you bought a can of Coca-Cola, ate a McDonalds, went to the cinema, signed a new mobile phone contract? etc etc etc. All of which treat us with no less ignorance and/or contempt than the last.

Dunno about everyone. And certainly not every day. I haven't bought a can of soda in ages. The last time I gave MacDonalds any money was when they had My Little Pony toys in stock. And My Little Pony definitely doesn't encourage ignorance or contempt! Before that, I hadn't given MacD's any money in years. I dunno. It all depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I've probably given money to someone that's out to screw me today. Maybe my ISP.



**by aged I mean, we've been involved in the hobby long enough for GW to take something we liked and turn it into something we liked a little less. Like Grey Knights. GW giveth, and Mat Ward taketh away.