Anyone who ever uses the word hater, READ THIS ARTICLE NOW.

[Commissar Merces]

I have participated in this hobby for almost 12 years now, I feel like I have a pretty good idea as to how GW has transformed. Back in ye olden days, going to the shop was fun because they encouraged you to convert with them, if you needed certain bitz store managers had no problem sharing them with you. You could bring the terrain you built from scratch and you almost never saw special characters running around in games. Codexes promoted customization in both builds and painting schemes as doctrines, biomorphs, wide range of wargear options, and traits were a way to make your army truly unique. I know some people abused this system, as they "math hammered" to make their army the most competitive that it could be, but people are going to do that anyways.

My biggest gripes right now in order

1. Constant reminder that we need to buy models and paints. From store managers, to their website, to white dwarf. I can hardly go into my store now without the manager uncomfortably trying to get me to purchase new models, when I have easily spent over $500 the past eight months. I am waiting for 6th ed. Deal with it. White Dwarf is more like a Macy's catalogue now than a legit hobby magazine has half of it is just picture and articles gushing about new products.

2. Complete disregard for long established fluff. The sadness I feel for the fluff/backstory is great. You aren't buying models and painting them just to have them, you are doing it for the experience. Games Workshop needs to realize that.

3. Price increases and marketing techniques. Can't say how much I dislike where we are going here. The company is doing poorly right now because everyone knows 6th is coming out, and even the people who didn't know this do now because the 5th ed rulebook has been pulled. Why are we waiting so long? Why no confirmation? Simple, they want people to keep buying models instead of waiting for 6th (particularly AoBR). You know they are increasing prices now because they want players to get into a buying frenzy before 6th ed by jacking up prices right before 6th ed but after 5th ed has been pulled. This mentality is essentially creating two waves of "must buy" First: "I must buy this model or else prices will go up, even though I don't want to buy anything until I see the 6th ed rulebook first. Guess I have to spend the money anyways" and the 2nd wave at the release date: "I must buy stuff for 6th ed, its a new edition after all. Then another 3rd wave in september when the new box set comes out.

I just wish Games Workshop stop blatantly trying to make $$$ off of us. I am fine with corporate profit and I want the company to do well, but right now I think they have lost the idea of what makes 40k fun. Not the models or the paints but the experience. The world around you. Right now when you walk into a store, new players and vets feel like its a sales pitch, rather than a true welcoming.

[Rick Blaine]

I guess that's where I have a problem. I really just do not grasp that attitude. I don't. Usually I can put myself in the other guy's shoes, but when it comes to people saying "Games Workshop is the alpha and omega to me" I can't do it, and that does affect my attitude.

.
.
.

So I really don't get it, being a fan of Only One Right Way. It's alien to me. I can't grasp it, I can barely even imagine it, and when I do try to imagine it... it just feels so dark and lonely that I can't help but want to try and convince other people that there IS a bigger world out there.

Well, if you're gonna be a fundie, at least you picked something harmless to be fundie about

[samiens]

Iamfanboy: not sure if that was in response to me, but I don't really understand that thought process.

I guess firstly, I seriously doubt there are many people for whom gw games are everything. I only do 40k wargaming but I play a ton of other game types and genres, as well as different sports and plenty of other hobbies.

Ive tried things out and aside from 40k I can think of better ways to spend my time than wargaming- I apologise if that's alien to you! If it helps, I've no interest in historicals and so far no other game or setting for a tabletop game has captured my imagination- so I don't do it.

I find it kind if odd that you're preaching a sungle, inalienable philosophy but you can't understand people who are similarly inflexible!

[Llew]

...
All those historical companies don't have shops of their own. Only a website, I guess this could have to do something with the price?
...

Sorry to single this out, but it's something I've seen people say a lot as of late. If the historicals and other makers *only* sold direct to the end customer through their own websites, you would have a point. But if they are able to sell wholesale to retailers, then they are having to build in the same kinds of margins for the retail store owner into the MSRP as GW would have to in order to keep their stores open. As a company, GW is on the hook for covering the store costs, but many manufacturers find ways to sell to retailers allowing similar kinds of margins.

[Tonny]

Sorry to single this out, but it's something I've seen people say a lot as of late. If the historicals and other makers *only* sold direct to the end customer through their own websites, you would have a point. But if they are able to sell wholesale to retailers, then they are having to build in the same kinds of margins for the retail store owner into the MSRP as GW would have to in order to keep their stores open. As a company, GW is on the hook for covering the store costs, but many manufacturers find ways to sell to retailers allowing similar kinds of margins.

I know they sell to retailers.

I also think it's a labour of love to have a hobby store that sell miniatures/paints/boardgames... as it surely isn't really profitable. All the independent stores I've known the last 15years or so went out of business.

When a store stocks Perry mini's, mantic, fireforge, gripping beast, GW ofcourse they make profit. Although I don't think they make much profit. The miniature companies doesn't have to pay for the cost that are connected in having a physical store. Only GW has that cost. The real business imo are webshops. (I think).

I only play Warhammer 8ed. and I will start Warhammer 40K again when 6th edition hits. I collect also historical figures, but don't play it.

GW as a miniature producing company is great imo. So long they produce great mini's they will get my money. For the rest I don't think to much about it. If I like a mini (doesn't matter which company) I will buy it. I coudn't care less what Kirby thinks or what their business ethos is. So long they don't us childlabour or some other bad things there is no problem for me.

If they ask x amount of money for a mini and I like the mini and I have the cash to spare. I will buy it. I will not think a second about hmm is the piece of plastic x amount of money worth.

Price comes after the quality of the product which is mostly a subjective feeling and imo GW is making the best mini's since they exist.

[Ebon]

1. Constant reminder that we need to buy models and paints. From store managers, to their website, to white dwarf. I can hardly go into my store now without the manager uncomfortably trying to get me to purchase new models, when I have easily spent over $500 the past eight months. I am waiting for 6th ed. Deal with it. White Dwarf is more like a Macy's catalogue now than a legit hobby magazine has half of it is just picture and articles gushing about new products.

Has anyone else noted an increased effort to upsell (that is, get you to purchase more than you went in for) recently? I rarely visit GW's physical stores but I've noticed some fairly heavy attempts to upsell lately.

2. Complete disregard for long established fluff. The sadness I feel for the fluff/backstory is great. You aren't buying models and painting them just to have them, you are doing it for the experience. Games Workshop needs to realize that.

Ward seems to be the king of this.

[iamfanboy]

Tonny, GW miniatures are average. At best. Go peruse hasslefree minis, reaper miniatures, the Infinity stuff, Malifaux (oh, especially Malifaux!) if you don't believe me.

At worst, they have massive Evil Dead chins on Isabellas, holes dotting vital details on their character minis, swords and other objects that can be bent out of shape by gentle pressure from storage foam, and off-kilter poses that sag in even room temperatures. Most of which is due to an inferior application of resin.

Their plastic sprues WERE above average, but the fact that companies like Warlord Games and Mantic are able to radically undersell them at similar quality despite needing to pay someone else to make their plastics says something less than positive about their business.


And samiens, it's generally the people who are the most inflexible that have the most difficulty in understanding each other. But there are quite a few people out there who seem to have purchased the "GW HobbyTM" philosophy along with the minis, to the point of being surprised that ordinary superglue is actually *gasp* better than GW's inferior product. Trying something else seems physically painful to them.

[Commissar Merces]

Has anyone else noted an increased effort to upsell (that is, get you to purchase more than you went in for) recently? I rarely visit GW's physical stores but I've noticed some fairly heavy attempts to upsell lately.



Ward seems to be the king of this.

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks these things. Ward is the worst, but there are other culprits.

[Sean_OBrien]

At this point I have given over the maintaining of the GW IP to FFG. Most of the books present fairly consistent information and they are much better value IMO. Who knows, maybe when GW goes under they will buy it out.

[samiens]

Iamfanboy: fair enough, I don't think I agree with anyone who is irrationally inflexible! I like GW, but undoubtedly they could do things to make me not do so- they just haven't yet. Similarly a tabetop game could release that I can't help but by- it just hasn't yet.

As for quality of models, that's highly subjective and not something you can just say x is better than y. Im not a big fan of malifaux models to be honest.

That's not to say I would only consider gw models- I own some pp still (although their restic is, frankly an awful material) and there a hi-tech minis obliterator knock off I would buy if they were legal at tournaments I frequent.

[Commissar Merces]

The only reason I haven't started playing a different game is due to the fact I love the 40k and fantasy universe. I am not buying models or books, I am buying the experience and joys of a made up world with adventure, danger, and the best part is I GET TO CONTROL PART OF IT.

The real issue with GW right now is they have lost sight of that experience as they make models and constantly just slam traditional fluff that has inspired the game for years. I have no problem paying the price increase as long as the experience has improved. Which it hasn't.

[the anti santa]

Tonny, GW miniatures are average. At best. Go peruse hasslefree minis, reaper miniatures, the Infinity stuff, Malifaux (oh, especially Malifaux!) if you don't believe me.

Oh come on! Hasslefree and Reaper produce miniatures of the quality that GW did 20 years ago. I will give you that the Malifaux and infinity stuff is very nice and I'd say Privateer press models are of a similar quality.

Their plastic sprues WERE above average, but the fact that companies like Warlord Games and Mantic are able to radically undersell them at similar quality despite needing to pay someone else to make their plastics says something less than positive about their business.

Now this is truly nonsense both Mantic and Warlord Games produce plastics that are better value for money but than GW, but in quality they are not even close. The Mantic sculpts are terrible, only the Undead range even looks half decent, whilst their sci-fi models are incredibly bland. Warlord's stuff is harder to compare as it is historical but still not as good as GW's. The only company the beat GW on plastics so far has been AoW as their slayers were great and cheaper than GW's too.

It's making ridiculous statements like that, that cause people to call you a hater. If you'd said there were models of equal or better quality at less cost out there or better value plastics a rational GW fan would agree with you. But to call them average and then name a bunch of companies producing much cheaper but also vastly inferior models is plain silly.

[iamfanboy]

? Reaper minis... aren't good? Especially compared to finecast? I do wonder what rock you've been under. Not to mention REAPER'S resin/plastic mixture looks nearly identical to their metal minis, while lacking those 'extra quality' holes for the nurgle-obsessed collector. I can see ragging on their old stuff (the same way we used to rag on Inquisitor Toilet Bowl from the RT era), but 'most anything produced by them in the last few years has been quality.

As far as comparing aesthetic qualities, it's problematic at best - what some might find cool (skulls, skulls, more skulls, armored chunky Daemonettes, hands about 3x bigger than realistic proportions require, and about 2x as big as 'heroic' scale should be), others find tiresome. I was merely comparing the materials involved, as well as the ratio of miscasts complained about and 'gubbins' on the sprue.

From that standpoint, GW plastic production hasn't advanced at all in eight years, whereas Renedra and other companies have come leaps and bounds ahead of them.

As far as aesthetics go, I actively hate the Mantic elves, the dwarves are boring, and the Corporation are bland, but their orcs and undead are good, their SKAVEN-IN-SPAAAAACE!!! minis are actually kind of interesting, and they managed to turn a laughable old idea that no one in GW could take seriously (the Squats) and make them kinda... well... badass looking.

But with the material quality matching GW's (or in some cases, *cough*resin*/cough* superior), all most companies require is a few good sculptors to beat GW. That's way, way less than was required even five years ago.

[zoggin-eck]

Tonny, GW miniatures are average. At best. Go peruse hasslefree minis, reaper miniatures, the Infinity stuff, Malifaux (oh, especially Malifaux!) if you don't believe me.

This is all opinion, and means nothing. Take a look at my painting fantasy blog, and you'll see I'm happy to paint and buy any manufacturer (at the moment it's 80's rafm monsters and some ral partha on my table, since we're name dropping), but what you said doesn't ring true with me, and I assume many other people, too. "Best" can mean a lot of things. If I enjoy painting a model, then it's the best miniature to me.

Hasslefree, to me has no charm whatsoever, and I wouldn't spend a moment painting them. Reaper I own many models from, mostly monsters and wizards, but I find them very hit and miss. Infinity I admit are very nice, but I'm bored with the Anime look, and after years I still can't tell the factions apart withour effort. Cool, but too "skinny" in a way that makes me not want to paint them. With Malifaux I can see the appeal and skill, but I just don't like them. Mantic could be free and I'd never get around to painting anything of theirs.

If someone prefers GW figures, don't go instantly assuming they don't know what else is out there.

[ewar]

I guess that's where I have a problem. I really just do not grasp that attitude. I don't. Usually I can put myself in the other guy's shoes, but when it comes to people saying "Games Workshop is the alpha and omega to me" I can't do it, and that does affect my attitude....

So I really don't get it, being a fan of Only One Right Way. It's alien to me. I can't grasp it, I can barely even imagine it, and when I do try to imagine it... it just feels so dark and lonely that I can't help but want to try and convince other people that there IS a bigger world out there.

Even if I get frustrated and end up insulting 'em too. :P

What I don't get is just why do you care what other people think or do with their hobby?

Your frustration ends up in someone else getting insulted... over what? Because you think they should do more with their spare time? Frankly, I think everyone should just stop trying to recruit others into GW, Mantic, Reaper whatever. Leave them alone, if they want to change they'll change.

Personally, my hobby time is getting less and less with every passing year and I have zero interest in trying to get my group to take up new games. If I can play a game of warhammer once a month and get an army painted once a year I'm doing well.

Just chill the **** out and concentrate on your own hobby instead of everyone elses.

[D503]

My only problem with GW is... My biggest gripes right now in order

The point of signpost phrases is to make sure people don't get confused. Try not to use them to confuse them more.

I just wish Games Workshop stop blatantly trying to make $$$ off of us.

I wish premiership footballers would play for free.

I wish for no income tax for teachers.

I wish for many things.... But for a company to not try to make money?

[Commissar Merces]

The point of signpost phrases is to make sure people don't get confused. Try not to use them to confuse them more.



I wish premiership footballers would play for free.

I wish for no income tax for teachers.

I wish for many things.... But for a company to not try to make money?

Well done! You haven't contributed anything constructive to your argument! Excuse me for misusing a signpost phrase, I will be sure not to do so.

There is a difference between doing good things to make a profit in business, and blatantly abusing your customer. Gamesworkshop hasn't gotten to that point yet but they flirting with the line. Everything with GW right now is "you need to buy this" or reminding you that they are going to increase prices so you better "buy now!" or even WD which used to be a wealth of knowledge and information has become a catalogue with pretty pictures to promote new models... THAT YOU HAVE TO PAY for. Its not good business and it comes off as arrogant. And people wonder why they have lost so much business to ebay and independent stores.

This isn't about wishing unrealistic things, as you seem to suggest. Recreating the great atmosphere that GW had a few years ago can be done, but they have chosen not to do so. I wish the company well and they have every right to run it how they want, but don't be surprised if people get upset and stop buying their product directly.

[Mirbeau]

Well done! You haven't contributed anything constructive to your argument! Excuse me for misusing a signpost phrase, I will be sure not to do so..... Recreating the great atmosphere that GW had a few years ago can be done, but they have chosen not to do so. I wish the company well and they have every right to run it how they want, but don't be surprised if people get upset and stop buying their product directly.

People have being saying the exact same thing since I joined in the mid-nineties. They've increased their marketing/content ratio in white dwarf, yes, and embarked upon some very unpopular policies. But, as for the 'atmosphere', nowts changed, really, it hasn't, you've grown up is all - and you are no longer their principle target.

As for flirting with 'abusing' the customer.... COME ON. Really? I know this is the internet, thus hyperbole, but still.... I've yet to see a local manager rodger customers with a finecast (censored.....)

[Tonny]

Tonny, GW miniatures are average. At best. Go peruse hasslefree minis, reaper miniatures, the Infinity stuff, Malifaux (oh, especially Malifaux!) if you don't believe me.

At worst, they have massive Evil Dead chins on Isabellas, holes dotting vital details on their character minis, swords and other objects that can be bent out of shape by gentle pressure from storage foam, and off-kilter poses that sag in even room temperatures. Most of which is due to an inferior application of resin.

Their plastic sprues WERE above average, but the fact that companies like Warlord Games and Mantic are able to radically undersell them at similar quality despite needing to pay someone else to make their plastics says something less than positive about their business.


And samiens, it's generally the people who are the most inflexible that have the most difficulty in understanding each other. But there are quite a few people out there who seem to have purchased the "GW HobbyTM" philosophy along with the minis, to the point of being surprised that ordinary superglue is actually *gasp* better than GW's inferior product. Trying something else seems physically painful to them.

It is your opinion, mine is that I think GW mini's are great, the last releases are extremely good and that I think GW is better than 15years ago.

Gw plastic sprues are great, in quality and in detail. I am working on a War of the Roses retinue from Perry's and the plastic WOTR boxes are just perfect. The detail, the sculpts, the diversity, the sprue layout. Are those better than GW's no. Both have the same high standard.

When I look at Mantic sprues, limiting posing and options it baffles me that you can say those are better than GW's. I would rate Mantic at the bottem of all plastic mini's in design and quality. GW, AoW, Perry, Victrix, Fireforge games and so on.

Oh come on! Hasslefree and Reaper produce miniatures of the quality that GW did 20 years ago. I will give you that the Malifaux and infinity stuff is very nice and I'd say Privateer press models are of a similar quality.



Now this is truly nonsense both Mantic and Warlord Games produce plastics that are better value for money but than GW, but in quality they are not even close. The Mantic sculpts are terrible, only the Undead range even looks half decent, whilst their sci-fi models are incredibly bland. Warlord's stuff is harder to compare as it is historical but still not as good as GW's. The only company the beat GW on plastics so far has been AoW as their slayers were great and cheaper than GW's too.

It's making ridiculous statements like that, that cause people to call you a hater. If you'd said there were models of equal or better quality at less cost out there or better value plastics a rational GW fan would agree with you. But to call them average and then name a bunch of companies producing much cheaper but also vastly inferior models is plain silly.

Well said!

This is all opinion, and means nothing. Take a look at my painting fantasy blog, and you'll see I'm happy to paint and buy any manufacturer (at the moment it's 80's rafm monsters and some ral partha on my table, since we're name dropping), but what you said doesn't ring true with me, and I assume many other people, too. "Best" can mean a lot of things. If I enjoy painting a model, then it's the best miniature to me.

Hasslefree, to me has no charm whatsoever, and I wouldn't spend a moment painting them. Reaper I own many models from, mostly monsters and wizards, but I find them very hit and miss. Infinity I admit are very nice, but I'm bored with the Anime look, and after years I still can't tell the factions apart withour effort. Cool, but too "skinny" in a way that makes me not want to paint them. With Malifaux I can see the appeal and skill, but I just don't like them. Mantic could be free and I'd never get around to painting anything of theirs.

If someone prefers GW figures, don't go instantly assuming they don't know what else is out there.

Also well said.

We all know what mini's exist, thanks to online shops it's very easy to test, buy other mini's. I own lots of mini's from different companies and GW imo is still at the top.
I am planning to finally start a Painting blog which will not only feature GW mini's, but the mini's I like to paint.

[lanrak]

Hi folks .
It was not my intension to cause any ofence in my previous post.
Its just GW plc corperate managment belive that if customers invest enough in thier minatures/game(s) before finding other minature /games companies they will be far less likely to try something from another company.
I have had lots of responces on this type of forum that follow this assumption.And the term 'plasic crack' is used by lots of people who say they are 'addicted 'to buying stuff or pointing out those that are addicted to buying from GW.

And the 'GW make the best minatures ', argument when the person saying it only has seen GW minatures , is following GW plc hype are they not?
Noticable corperate inteference in game development started when 3rd ed 40k game out.And intensified in the early 2000s.(When SG were dropped to life support only.)

The demoghraphc HAS changed in my experiance of GW.
Before 1998 GW targeted gamers of all ages and abilities.

Post 2004, GW plc targeted children (of all ages) irsepective of thier ability or desire to play table top minature games.
(GW plc grew fat and lazy on the back of easy sucess.Mr T Kirby Chairman.)

If you have looked at the miriad of other games rules and minatures available , and settle on 40k as the one you personally want.Excellent!
TTMG is not the only hobby.
GW plc is not the only suplier of TTMG games and minatures .

But those that condem all other games and minature manufacturers , as sub standard and obscure, becuase GW plc are the best .Without even looking at the alternatives are acting like 'adicts who prefer to belive the dealer' than look at other alternatives...

And GW plc keep treating these loyal customers to higher prices and lower standards .
And as a result are loosing sales volumes and an ever faster rate.
The studio staff do the very best they can, despite the worst efforts of the corperate mangment to deter as many customers as possible with price rises over inflation, and interferance in game development.

Yes gamers are no longer GW plc principal target.
But children are.
Thats why I dont play GW plc core games any more, as I am a gamer, but no longer a child.