Did the Iron Hands have Iron Hands on Terra?

[Sqallum]

The Iron Hands are crazy cyborg marines, which we all know. In the Great Crusade they developed the Iron Creed, replacing flesh with metal. However, would they have removed their hands during the creation of the Legion on Terra/before re-uniting with Ferrus Manus? Or would they only have become metal lovers after meeting Ferrus Manus?
Thank You.

[Lord Damocles]

The Iron Hands' iron hands are a symbolic link to Ferrus Manus, and their refusal of fleshy weakness, according to the Iron Hands Index astartes.

Replacing hands with bionics prior to finding their Primarch (who they wouldn't have known had his own metal hands, or had a name relating to hands) or developing a hatred of weak flesh would seem a particularly unlikely coincidence.

[DietDolphin]

Replacing hands with bionics prior to finding their Primarch (who they wouldn't have known had his own metal hands, or had a name relating to hands)

I'm willing to bet they weren't actually called the "Iron Hands" until Ferrus Manus was reunited with his legion, much like the World eaters and Death Guard.

[Reivax26]

How many of the Legions actually have their original names would be a better question to pose.

[Askil the Undecided]

My guess would be "none of them, that's why they were numbered" the names were something that evolved after time. Much like with real military formations.

[Spetulhu]

My guess would be "none of them, that's why they were numbered" the names were something that evolved after time. Much like with real military formations.

Like Roman Legions getting names after a particularly succesful campaign or victory? Aye, I can see how that makes sense.

[mob16151]

Well off the top of my head, I remember the Death Guard were known as the Imperial heralds,The World Eaters were the Dusk Raiders, the Sons of Horus were the Luna Wolves, and the World Eaters were the War Hounds.

[Wazzahamma]

But the Thousand Sons were always Thousand Sons...

[shadowhawk2008]

Well off the top of my head, I remember the Death Guard were known as the Imperial heralds,The World Eaters were the Dusk Raiders, the Sons of Horus were the Luna Wolves, and the World Eaters were the War Hounds.

And that's all mixed up....

The Death Guard were known as the Dusk Raiders because of their preference for attacking at dusk.
The World Eaters were known as the War Hounds.
The Word Bearers were known as the Imperial Heralds.
The Sons of Horus were the Luna Wolves before the events of the Dreadful Sagittary in Horus Rising. What they were known as BEFORE Horus was found is unknown.

[El_Machinae]

I expect that their tendencies towards bionics was already present, if only because of the genetic/psychic metaphorical link to the primarch. It might not have been actual replacement bionics, though. It could have been supplemental bionics or robotic assists.

But the Thousand Sons were always Thousand Sons...

I felt sorry for the thousand and first recruits, and onwards. They were never part of the 'in club'.

[Scalebug]

I think, but I don't have the book in front of me, that the IA articles described the removal of a perfectly healthy hand and replacing it with bionics on initiation for all members of the chapter, rather than as replacement for battle damaged limbs, as something that was implemented after the Heresy, as a ritual thing to remind them of the weakness of flesh that in their mind had caused them to lose their Primarch.

They must have been heavily into bionics before that though, as they vetoed, or at least protested until he gave in, Guilliman putting a "How to take out cybernetic tanks for dummies" section in the Codex Astartes shortly after the Heresy. While it was intended for fighting Iron Warriors, Dark Mecanicum and various aliens, they saw it as something that could be used against them, were they to come to blows with another Space Marine chapter in the future.

[Spetulhu]

Somewhat off-topic... As a Finn I usually smile a bit at people being called "hand" this and "hand" that. Especially the ninjas of The Hand in the Daredevil comics. "Käsi" (Finnish for hand) is what you call someone who has his thumb in the middle of his hand.

But otherwise I agree that the rituals and names probably came later, as each generation added their own touches to the legend of the Chapter. The Blood Angels didn't name each and every item "blood" the moment they were founded, the Space Wolves didn't put "wolf" in everything at the start. First foundings famous for this or that trait didn't have it to quite that degree during the Heresy, they've refined it and specialized since.

[Lord Damocles]

I think, but I don't have the book in front of me, that the IA articles described the removal of a perfectly healthy hand and replacing it with bionics on initiation for all members of the chapter, rather than as replacement for battle damaged limbs, as something that was implemented after the Heresy, as a ritual thing to remind them of the weakness of flesh that in their mind had caused them to lose their Primarch.

The Index Astartes doesn't say when the left* hand replacement initiation was first implemented, but the accompanying picture(s) show a 'Pre-heresy Iron hands colour scheme' Marine who has a bionic hand (on the same side as the 'Post-Heresy Iron Hands colour scheme' Marine).

*The text of the article says left hand, but (hilariously) the pictures show the right hand

[mob16151]

oops thought I had edited that.

[acopp07]

Well off the top of my head, I remember the Death Guard were known as the Imperial heralds,The World Eaters were the Dusk Raiders, the Sons of Horus were the Luna Wolves, and the World Eaters were the War Hounds.

The Death Gaurd used to be the Dusk Raiders

[totgeboren]

The Death Gaurd used to be the Dusk Raiders

Not to mention that the World Eaters were not called both "Dusk Raiders" and "War Hounds". He got one out of four right at least (no offence meant mob16151, but it was kinda humorous).

[Chem-Dog]

I am inclined to say that, generally, before the Imperium found Medusa and Ferrus Manus the X Legion were no more or less likely to have Bionics than any other Legion.

The Index Astartes doesn't say when the left* hand replacement initiation was first implemented, but the accompanying picture(s) show a 'Pre-heresy Iron hands colour scheme' Marine who has a bionic hand (on the same side as the 'Post-Heresy Iron Hands colour scheme' Marine).

"Pre heresy", with specific respect to uniforms, rolls right up to the implementation of Guilleman's Codex though which is still in a rather hazy period of time somewhere after Horus died. When talking about the Iron Hands in particular there are several other portions of time that should be examined:-
1 Crusade- Pre Primarch. Whatever the Legion looked like and was called before the Primarch was found.
2 Crusade- With Primarch. The Legion's rededication to the Primarch including any changes to name and uniform.
3 Heresy- With Primarch. A negligibly small period of time, included for the sake of completeness.
4 Heresy- Post Primarch. Pretty much the whole Heresy.
5 Codex. Whatever came after the Legion was spit into chapters.

I'd say that the bionic hand thing kicked in sometime during #4. Perhaps as a mark or mourning or as an act of remembrance that, maybe, started with one individual. If that individual became the first Chapter Master of the Iron Hands as a Chapter this act could easily become an act of rededication, a statement of intent by those who remained Iron Hands, an undertaking to never forget their Primarch's teachings (or whatever). This would explain, at least, why none of the Successors seem to follow with this particular ritual mutilation.

[DietDolphin]

I'd say that the bionic hand thing kicked in sometime during #4. Perhaps as a mark or mourning or as an act of remembrance that, maybe, started with one individual. If that individual became the first Chapter Master of the Iron Hands as a Chapter this act could easily become an act of rededication, a statement of intent by those who remained Iron Hands, an undertaking to never forget their Primarch's teachings (or whatever). This would explain, at least, why none of the Successors seem to follow with this particular ritual mutilation.

Actually in the HH book The primarchs in the story Feat of Iron (which is set before the heresy) the Iron Hands had already started this practice. All Iron Hands are noted as having at least 1 iron hand (one of the marines in the story is noted to not really care about bionics but still has 1 iron hand, I can't remember which side). Also The senior Iron Hands look down on other marines with little bionics.

I personally never thought this made much sense. Ferrus Manus never had any bionics so while replacing one hand as a tribute is fine (which would be cooler if it started after his death), replacing everything seems a little forced. I prefer to think that the mantra "The flesh is weak" is more or less "mind over matter" or "The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, through strength of mind and purpose can we overcome the weakness of flesh" and that the literal meaning only developed over 10000 yrs as the imperium became less understanding and more obtuse. Also adds a little more grimness to the Iron Hands.

[MvS]

I tend to agree.

I'm hoping that the extreme fetishisation of bionics and hatred of 'weakness' in the Chapter is described as really kicking off after the Dropsite Massacre, as a sort of reaction to the loss of their Primarch and their entire first company.

[Chem-Dog]

Actually in the HH book The primarchs in the story Feat of Iron (which is set before the heresy) the Iron Hands had already started this practice. All Iron Hands are noted as having at least 1 iron hand (one of the marines in the story is noted to not really care about bionics but still has 1 iron hand, I can't remember which side). Also The senior Iron Hands look down on other marines with little bionics.

Fair enough, I've not read (listened to? I lose track) the Primarchs yet.

I personally never thought this made much sense. Ferrus Manus never had any bionics so while replacing one hand as a tribute is fine (which would be cooler if it started after his death), replacing everything seems a little forced. I prefer to think that the mantra "The flesh is weak" is more or less "mind over matter" or "The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, through strength of mind and purpose can we overcome the weakness of flesh" and that the literal meaning only developed over 10000 yrs as the imperium became less understanding and more obtuse. Also adds a little more grimness to the Iron Hands.

Could it be that, lacking Manus' quite stern overseeing eye, the tendency towards this kind of behaviour/thinking was allowed to run riot where he had previously curtailed it (consciously or not)? This senior IH member (or others like him) could be the cause for it becoming more than a simple act of honouring the Primarch, allowing his own issues to become a driving force behind the Legion/Chapter's psychological...oddities.

I tend to agree.

I'm hoping that the extreme fetishisation of bionics and hatred of 'weakness' in the Chapter is described as really kicking off after the Dropsite Massacre, as a sort of reaction to the loss of their Primarch and their entire first company.

To be a Legionary who survived when your Primarch and all of his Veterans didn't, that would be the mother lode as far as survivor guilt goes, it's not too much of a leap to then to imagine that it mutates into this extreme form of self flagellation. An Astartes isn't supposed to outlive his Primarch.