Eldrad Ulthram

[Bergen Beerbelly]

But Eldrad is no aspect warrior... I see the armor-reincarnation thing as a very specific thing concerning Phenix Lords. I'm not sure either about the Eldrad-wraithseer: I feel like Eldrad is a guide to his people, even more than other seers, and although I think he would still take part to councils on Ulthwe as a spirit stone consciousness I doubt the Eldar would place him in a wraithbone construct on the battlefield.

Eldrad isn't an Aspect Warrior but he is a Farseer. And Farseers are the equivalent of an Exarch, only for the Path of the Seer rather than any of the Warrior paths. Also, if you read what a Wraithseer is and how they are made, Eldrad would fit the bill quite nicely.

However, I suspect GW will not actually kill him off. He's the iconic Farseer of the Eldar and has been for a very long time. It would be like them killing off Abbadon for Chaos, or Commisar Yarrick for Imperial Guard. I just don't think they will remove him from the Eldar book.

[BooTMGSG]

Exarchs are different from others trapped on their path.
Others who are trapped on their path still join the infinite circuitry when they die. Farseer's from what I remember form a more prominent part in the circuitry.

Exarchs on the other hand are too bloody and bellicous to be allowed into the infitie ciruitry when they die, so they are contained in their armour. They can't find peace with their people, they can't find release in death as she who thirsts is waiting. The only way out is as the sacrifice as the young king, or by being gobbled up by a pheonix lord.

[Hendarion]

Slaanesh has them all, although they seem to be able to hide them (craftworlders at least) so my statement wasn't really correct.

No, Slaanesh doesn't have them all. She wishes she had.

Exarchs are different from others trapped on their path.
Others who are trapped on their path still join the infinite circuitry when they die. Farseer's from what I remember form a more prominent part in the circuitry.

No, they don't. Exarchs (trapped Eldar) are kept away from the circuit, because it would taint and poison it with too much focused spirits. Farseers are a different story though.

[BooTMGSG]

No, they don't. Exarchs (trapped Eldar) are kept away from the circuit, because it would taint and poison it with too much focused spirits. Farseers are a different story though.

Are you certain of this?
I've only seen those trapped on the path of the warrior called Exarchs. The other main mention of someone trapped on the a path is the Farseer.
In path of the Seer, the seer's father seemed trapped on the path of the bonesinger, yet did not seemed trapped to a suit or be part of a gestalt personality. In their conversation it was implied that being trapped is not a necessarily a bad thing, that as an eldar gets older, and have switched between paths, they may settle (or be trapped) on a particular path. The seer's father's objection was that the seer was too young and would miss out on many things.

When the Warrior in path of the warrior tried to use the circuitry he found it difficult with his war mask on, but had no problem when following the path of the artist.
It would suggest that it is the warlike nature of the aspect warrior that is kept separate from the infinite ciruitry, and that those unable to let go of their warmask are forever trapped away from the ciruitry, and so must be protected in death, through their suits.

In path of the seer, there are mention of ghosts in the circuitry, of those too focused to allow themselves to disapate. While care needed to be taken when approaching them, it was not serious enough for them to be separated from the circuit.

[Idaan]

I think you're both agreeing, but you have different definitions of what an Exarch is. As we don't have an overall term for an Eldar trapped on a Path (though I like Kage2020's "Paramount Practitioner"), it's acceptable to call them Exarchs, even though strictly speaking it refers only to trapped Aspect Warriors.

[Hendarion]

Yea, Idaan, we're missing a term except "trapped" itself. Some trapped Eldar might endanger the circuit like warriors obviously do. But I think that also others can cause the same "dissonances" or "misleading" the "big picture" forming - that's what I mean by tainting. A gardener, cook or bonesinger probably won't. But what about political fanatics, extreme sports, sexuality focused Eldar, etc? There surely are paths which are meant to experience things which shouldn't be experienced without control. That's the basic idea of the Paths actually. So some of them *will* be dangerous or they won't require a path. Dangerous not only for the individual, but also for the community - for society... for the sum of all the collected souls, for the circuit, for Ynnead.

[Inquisitor Engel]

No, they don't. Exarchs (trapped Eldar) are kept away from the circuit, because it would taint and poison it with too much focused spirits. Farseers are a different story though.

I always imagined those Spirit Stones used in Wraithlords were former Exarchs and kept 'secluded' from the rest of the Infinity Circuit for that very reason.

Going back to the soul-creation thing - Since Morai-Heg is no longer around to doll-out Eldar souls, I'd imagine the "souls are developed/grown" theory holds some sway in 40k and that clones have a defect that makes their experiences unable to coalesce in the warp, so their brains can learn and grow, but there's nothing in the Warp reflecting that growth of consciousness and experience.

The idea of Eldar shoving inhabited Spirit Stones into newborn Eldar is unique, and quite terrifying.

I think you're both agreeing, but you have different definitions of what an Exarch is. As we don't have an overall term for an Eldar trapped on a Path (though I like Kage2020's "Paramount Practitioner"), it's acceptable to call them Exarchs, even though strictly speaking it refers only to trapped Aspect Warriors.

Kage's definition always gave me visions of an Eldar screaming "I AM THE EXARCH OF SUNFLOWER GROWING!" in the middle of a garden, before expertly flinging fertilizer in just the right places.

I think being trapped tends to refer explicitly to Aspect Warriors, as it's often said that they're UNABLE to leave the Path. One can be an exarch of the Bonesingers and not WANT to leave, because it seems like a good gig, but that doesn't mean you're trapped. All those trapped on a Path are exarchs, but not all exarchs (or their equivalents) are trapped.

Farseers seem a special case, since it doesn't require the donning of a War Mask, and while intense mentally, isn't as contrary to their very nature as Eldar. Farseers are likely trapped by circumstance, as once they learn the value of their abilities to the craftworld and to the Eldar race as a whole, they become unable to leave their Path due to obligation and duty, rather than a psychological barrier.

[BooTMGSG]

I always imagined those Spirit Stones used in Wraithlords were former Exarchs and kept 'secluded' from the rest of the Infinity Circuit for that very reason.

I think Path of the seers, mentioned that Wraithlords were powered by dormant Exarchs (Po Warrior Exarchs not sunflower growing Exarch). Not sure the exact reason given, but felt sure it was along the lines of: Murderous Killer Soul + 14 foot tall killing machine = WIN!!!!!

I think being trapped tends to refer explicitly to Aspect Warriors, as it's often said that they're UNABLE to leave the Path. One can be an exarch of the Bonesingers and not WANT to leave, because it seems like a good gig, but that doesn't mean you're trapped. All those trapped on a Path are exarchs, but not all exarchs (or their equivalents) are trapped.

Farseers seem a special case, since it doesn't require the donning of a War Mask, and while intense mentally, isn't as contrary to their very nature as Eldar. Farseers are likely trapped by circumstance, as once they learn the value of their abilities to the craftworld and to the Eldar race as a whole, they become unable to leave their Path due to obligation and duty, rather than a psychological barrier.

You could argue that obligation and duty, (as well as the Ego that says "I can shape the destiny of my craftworld!"/"I am the Savour of my people!") is a psychological barrier, all be it a more subtle barrier than the kill frenzy of the Exarchs.

For others trapped on their path, it can be:
"I've tried everything I want to try, I think I will stick to flower pot arranging."
"Just one more turn of Civ II and I'm done for the night."
"Only I am talented enough to perform this Job."

[Hendarion]

Going back to the soul-creation thing - Since Morai-Heg is no longer around to doll-out Eldar souls, I'd imagine the "souls are developed/grown" theory holds some sway in 40k and that clones have a defect that makes their experiences unable to coalesce in the warp, so their brains can learn and grow, but there's nothing in the Warp reflecting that growth of consciousness and experience.

Even though that might sound scary for an Eldar in the first place, but this would be THE solution to get free from Slaanesh. But I doubt this is how it works. Dark Eldar get born naturally or cloned and all of them suffer from soul-draining. So they do have souls. If you want to say so, isn't a soul the reflection of your personality and feelings in the Warp? So the question should be the opposite I think: How can there be creatures without souls!?
The thing about Morai-Heg might be more figurative than physical fact. Or "it" worked totally different before the Fall, because Eldar got reborn - but clearly their society also grew. So "something" had to control which newborn gets a new soul and which one receives an "old" one. Maybe Morai-Heg did indeed do that, but then she probably didn't "create" Eldar-souls, but "prevented" new bodies from getting new ones by placing old ones inside while those "truely" new individuals got "new" souls like every other race does. Now comes another question: Why did Slaanesh form up in the Warp if Eldar got reborn? Did the souls of the living mesh together and not those of the dead? There couldn't be souls of dead Eldar, could it? If so, what about those souls of the living Craftworld-Eldar? Their souls are ... inside their bodies and not inside the Warp? Or are they inside the Warp and form something else just like the souls of the dead inside the infinity Matrix form Ynnead?
Gosh, I think I once again reached a point of thoughts where all explanations from GW start to show contradictions.

"Just one more turn of Civ II and I'm done for the night."

Made my day! Totally! I remember those nights, although I have to admit they started with Civilisation 1.

[Poseidal]

I think you're both agreeing, but you have different definitions of what an Exarch is. As we don't have an overall term for an Eldar trapped on a Path (though I like Kage2020's "Paramount Practitioner"), it's acceptable to call them Exarchs, even though strictly speaking it refers only to trapped Aspect Warriors.

What other paths are there which have the trapping in this way? Farseer maybe, but then that one could be terminal for another reason (crystallisation) and is only partaken by those who've seen a lot of paths/a lot of life (in principle anyway).

Though perhaps it's just common among the Warriors in such a way it demanded it's own name. Maybe the other paths don't lock Eldar in obsession as much as the Warrior one does, and nothing sates the Eldar more than violence?

[Idaan]

What other paths are there which have the trapping in this way? Farseer maybe, but then that one could be terminal for another reason (crystallisation) and is only partaken by those who've seen a lot of paths/a lot of life (in principle anyway)

To the Eldar all paths are strewn with dangers, for the Eldar mind is capable of depth and understanding that goes beyond the concept of mere Human obsession. Such dangers are likened to traps or nets, waiting to catch the unwary upon the Eldar path and hold him fast forever. When an Eldar's mind becomes so tightly focused upon one thing that he can no longer make the change to another path then he is said to be lost upon the path.This is a terrible and frightening fate for all Eldar, as it is a fate that can befall any of them despite the discipline and training that they receive. In the case of the Warrior path these individuals are called Exarchs, and there are other examples of this fate such as the Crystal Seers and the doomed Bards of Twilight

So it definitely can happen to any Eldar. In addition to these, "Path of the Eldar" mentions several new "lost" states, including on Path of the Bonesinger. We also know that the Pathfinders are lost as Outcasts, even though it's not a true path.

Though perhaps it's just common among the Warriors in such a way it demanded it's own name. Maybe the other paths don't lock Eldar in obsession as much as the Warrior one does, and nothing sates the Eldar more than violence?

Agreed. The Eldar are ultimately a biological weapon and bloodshed has much more draw to them than knitting or agriculture. There's no mention of other lost Eldar aside from Exarchs being barred from entering the Infinity Circuit, so the effect on their psyche has to be much stronger. Still, there are some that welcome it, such as Aranahra (interestingly his name is similar to Arhra, so maybe it's a leftover from some older teachings) in "Path of the Warrior"

[madd0ct0r]

Even though that might sound scary for an Eldar in the first place, but this would be THE solution to get free from Slaanesh. But I doubt this is how it works. Dark Eldar get born naturally or cloned and all of them suffer from soul-draining. So they do have souls. If you want to say so, isn't a soul the reflection of your personality and feelings in the Warp? So the question should be the opposite I think: How can there be creatures without souls!?
The thing about Morai-Heg might be more figurative than physical fact. Or "it" worked totally different before the Fall, because Eldar got reborn - but clearly their society also grew. So "something" had to control which newborn gets a new soul and which one receives an "old" one. Maybe Morai-Heg did indeed do that, but then she probably didn't "create" Eldar-souls, but "prevented" new bodies from getting new ones by placing old ones inside while those "truely" new individuals got "new" souls like every other race does. Now comes another question: Why did Slaanesh form up in the Warp if Eldar got reborn? Did the souls of the living mesh together and not those of the dead? There couldn't be souls of dead Eldar, could it? If so, what about those souls of the living Craftworld-Eldar? Their souls are ... inside their bodies and not inside the Warp? Or are they inside the Warp and form something else just like the souls of the dead inside the infinity Matrix form Ynnead?
Gosh, I think I once again reached a point of thoughts where all explanations from GW start to show contradictions.

Lessee - 40k terms the 'soul' is the collection of emotions, desires and thoughts that echo someone's brain in the warp. A warp connection is required to form this ( so blanks still have emotions and thoughts but they never get projected, while a pysker projects far more and more loudly then a normal person).

I think I agree wth you on Morai-Heg - perhaps the process of an 'old' soul being reborn is almost like possession (by a tiny, tiny fragment of power compared to a demon)? Eldar seem to be highly resistant to mutation, so the vessel wouldn't necessarily fall apart the same ways humans do when possessed by something much more powerful.

Slaanesh wasn't built from Eldar souls though, but Eldar emotions. It wasn't until her birth scream she actually consumed any souls (possible exceptions being ritual sacrifices to the dark muses pre-fall). Living craftworld eldar have souls, but I think the soulstones act as a warp stuff battery, so the 'light' the eldar would be projecting into the warp is instead absorbed and stored by the soulstone. Maybe the process isn't 100% efficient and some 'glow' still gets through. Given the side affects of being a blank, perhaps some 'glow' HAS to get through to make the person feel normal to others.

Ynnead is intresting, since my impression of the infinity cirucuit is it is far more intelligent then emotional, the opposite of a naturally formed chaos god.

[Poseidal]

Slaanesh wasn't built from Eldar souls though, but Eldar emotions. It wasn't until her birth scream she actually consumed any souls (possible exceptions being ritual sacrifices to the dark muses pre-fall). Living craftworld eldar have souls, but I think the soulstones act as a warp stuff battery, so the 'light' the eldar would be projecting into the warp is instead absorbed and stored by the soulstone. Maybe the process isn't 100% efficient and some 'glow' still gets through. Given the side affects of being a blank, perhaps some 'glow' HAS to get through to make the person feel normal to others.

Arguably, there might be a case of Slaanesh being made Eldar souls. The first mention of the Fall of the Eldar and the Birth of Slaanesh seemed to explicitly state this was the case (in the Harlequin fluff, pre WD127). There are also hints of some Eldar worshipping the pre-born entity.

Also, perhaps the the pre-born Slaanesh wasn't an entity as such, but the emotional waves causing a sort of 'vacuum' to create it. When it goes over the tipping point, it's like breaking a hole in the bottom of a wet cement container: All the Eldar souls close to it are sucked in filling the space – the space not being Slaanesh but what forms in it is Slaanesh.

Or you could say that the gap itself is Slaanesh, which wouldn't apply to the souls which just 'fill' Slaanesh.

[Shamana]

Arguably, there might be a case of Slaanesh being made Eldar souls. The first mention of the Fall of the Eldar and the Birth of Slaanesh seemed to explicitly state this was the case (in the Harlequin fluff, pre WD127). There are also hints of some Eldar worshipping the pre-born entity.

The Dark Eldar codex mentions the pre-fall eldar having cults worshipping "Dark Muses"; which definitely sounds Slaanesh-like. While they most likely did not worship it directly, I imagine it fed off this veneration nonetheless. Also, doesn't the Warp have near-any number of minor powers not aligned with the big 4? I imagine that is how Slaanesh started, before the Eldar empire's spiritual corruption became its "Wonder-Growth" formula.

Personally, I distinctly believe that the huge influx of eldar souls and in a sense veneration pretty much shaped Slaanesh as it turned it from a minor power to one of the four Chaos gods. In a sense, it is their reflection. This accounts for both its assumption of most Eldar gods and its lust for Eldar souls - on some level, they would still call to it in the warp. Like calls to like.

[Idaan]

The Dark Eldar codex mentions the pre-fall eldar having cults worshipping "Dark Muses"; which definitely sounds Slaanesh-like. While they most likely did not worship it directly, I imagine it fed off this veneration nonetheless. Also, doesn't the Warp have near-any number of minor powers not aligned with the big 4? I imagine that is how Slaanesh started, before the Eldar empire's spiritual corruption became its "Wonder-Growth" formula.

Personally, I distinctly believe that the huge influx of eldar souls and in a sense veneration pretty much shaped Slaanesh as it turned it from a minor power to one of the four Chaos gods. In a sense, it is their reflection. This accounts for both its assumption of most Eldar gods and its lust for Eldar souls - on some level, they would still call to it in the warp. Like calls to like.

As the Eldar pursued their road to destruction so their emotional life degenerated into the reckless pursuit of pleasure, exotic experience and intellectual indulgence. The mental energies released into the warp as a result coagulated into an entity, an entity which was potentially very powerful but which was not yet fully conscious. This was, of course, the entity called Slaanesh. Although Slaanesh was not yet fully conscious some Eldar had already begun to worship the god's sleeping form. For centuries the Eldar had predicted the Coming of the Lord of Pleasure, so that many had come to disbelieve the prophets and their endless tales of doom.

blah blah blah

[Shamana]

blah blah blah

Curse you and your antique WD knowledge !

Actually, with all those things and minor powers floating around in the warp, I still think it quite possible that the eldar "energies" coagulated around something that was already present - a very minor thing, perhaps, but something. And the DE codex does talk of some "dark muses" being worshipped that sapped the strength of the old Eldar gods. Perhaps Proto-slaanesh was worshipped as one or several of them?

[Bergen Beerbelly]

The 4th edition Eldar codex does say this about it on page 4...

"Amidst the swirling psychic energy of the Empyrean, the corruption of the decadent Eldar became manifest as their departing spirits began to coalesce into a gestalt consciousness."

Sounds like Slaanesh is definitely made up of Eldar spirits.

[Eumerin]

Slaanesh has them all, although they seem to be able to hide them (craftworlders at least) so my statement wasn't really correct.

The Harlequins, with the notable exception of the Solitaire, would beg to differ.

As would, of course, the Laughing God.


As for the original topic, I've already explained the answer to that question elsewhere. Eldrad will return in the next codex, striding through a webway gate, dragging the shattered remains of the possessed avatar from the Daemons codex behind him.

Because, after all, even the Eldar codex has to beat up on avatars!

:P

[stormblade]

It's fascinating how many people would take their time to correct me after I have already corrected myself.

[Inquisitor Engel]

As for the original topic, I've already explained the answer to that question elsewhere. Eldrad will return in the next codex, striding through a webway gate, dragging the shattered remains of the possessed avatar from the Daemons codex behind him.

Don't forget the Doom of Malan'tai!