[Lingo] AV13 spam?

[El_Machinae]

I know what AV13 spam means, I think. I means taking as many AV13s as you can.

What I don't get is the strategic value. Why '13'? Why 'spam'?

[grey knights rock]

because there are a few armies out there that CAN spam av13. it's basically like razor spam(which is av11 spam), except because more than just marines can do it, it is refered to as av13 spam. Some examples are necrons with their quantum sheilding and blood angels with their baal predators and regular heavy support predators.

[Kelanen]

'Spam' is internet sling for lots of anything - it's based on a Monty Python sketch in the 70's.

AV13 spam is just that - taking lots of AV13 vehicles (often supported by AV12 Dreadnoughts, AV11 Rhinos or AV14 Land Raiders). The idea is to overwhelm the amount of antitank weaponry your opponent has.

If you take a 'balanced' force with a bit of everything, and say a couple of vehicles, then your opponent can deal with everything in your army, and those vehicles will likely be dead on turn 1. If you take all vehicles, then their anti-infantry weapons are all useless. If you take all infantry then their anti-tank weapons are horribly inefficient, and so on. It's basic game theory about trying to overwhelm one part of the game, and drought another, and applies to pretty much any army/deck/mini construction game.

[Sami]

That, and missile launchers (and equivalent strength weapons) are popular anti-tank weapons and can be taken in relative abundance. However, against Av13 and Av14 they stuffer as they will only glance on a 5+ or 6+ respectively. Thus, any army that takes lost of those guns (usually to deal with Razorback and Rhino spam) will be at a disadvantage against Av13-14.

[Buddha777]

Plus it's a now common term associated with necron armies since they can field an enormous amount of AV13 (thanks to quantum shielding) vehicles. Other imperial armies can AV13 spam like marines with ironclad dreads and predator tanks.

[Str10_hurts]

13 works because vehicles are cheaper than nearly all AV14 varants so melta weapons are not as efficient (they are still incredible tank killers!), and you have a heads up versus long ranged anti tank as it is mostly S7 and 8.
In general its ok but not chimera good.

(Still I do not think there is any army that wouldn't trade its vehicle for a chimera if it could.)

[Kelanen]

(Still I do not think there is any army that wouldn't trade its vehicle for a chimera if it could.)

*puts hand up* Me.

Chimeras are much worse than Rhinos if you aren't running a lot of them to cover their flanks. Any SM army is better with Rhinos (doubly so for GK). IG spamming Chimeras are however better with Chimeras than Rhinos.

Just because they work well for Guard, doesn't mean they would work for everyone.

[ChaplainCharlie]

In the Chimera, you pay points for guns that Marines don't need. They have the Razorback for that. The Chimera is also lacking in side armor and hence is ill-suited for close-range combat. Where the Rhino can push deeper into enemy territory thanks to its side being AV11 and hence ignoring small arms, it is complimenting the Marine play style more than the Chimera. The Chimera is an oustanding Guard vehicle, I have half a dozen of them and need more, but that is when it plays like Guard, ie static shooting. If you were to use Chimeras as dedicated assault-y transports, then you'd be doing badly. 55pts for an upgrade in frontal AV, but a downgrade in flank AV and loosing side entry points? For a Marine, that's a bad deal.
Or for an Ork, with BS2. What does he do with those guns if he can't hit anything and can only cram in 12 boys? Or for the Dark Eldar, who would be tied down by the lack of speed and now suddenly be in posession of a static element?

Spam lists are unimaginative when there are good builds that do not require that. Consider this very simple example: two biker army lists with one army having five line-squads of bikers with 2 Meltaguns, a combi-melta and Multi-melta attack bike. This same unit is spammed five times. Then in the other list we have one with dual flamers, combi-melta and a heavy bolter, two with dual plasmaguns, combi-plasma and multi-meltas and two with meltas, combi-meltas and multi-meltas. There is practically no points difference, but the second armylist is by miles more interesting and adaptable. Hordes? It has flamers. Vehicle spam? It has melta capability in every unit. Elite troops? It can fire AP2 and AP1 shots at stand-off distances. It is just better than mindless copy-pasting of a single unit.

As for why AV13 is good, is because of the aforementioned difference of glancing on 4s, 3s and 2s for Chimeras, Rhinos and Venoms respectively compared to glancing on 5s, which tips the scales to not causing damage most of the time or even half the time. That makes it frustrating for mathhammerers, who like to know that "statistically" they can suppress the enemy with this amount of firepower. It's a psychological thing. But also a good tactic, because things like Predators are dirt cheap and in order to cause damage on AV13, one has to either pour in many shots or upgrade to really expensive ranged anti-tank weapons. If they are forced to upgrade, then you have just cut down the size of their army and basically caused casualties. If it means that for example Space Wolf players must upgrade their MLs to Lascannons and loose a few Grey Hunters in the process, it means you have that many less troops to kill in order to win.

[Kelanen]

The Chimera is an oustanding Guard vehicle, I have half a dozen of them and need more, but that is when it plays like Guard, ie static shooting. If you were to use Chimeras as dedicated assault-y transports, then you'd be doing badly. 55pts for an upgrade in frontal AV, but a downgrade in flank AV and loosing side entry points? For a Marine, that's a bad deal.

Agreed completely.

Spam lists are unimaginative when there are good builds that do not require that. Consider this very simple example: two biker army lists with one army having five line-squads of bikers with 2 Meltaguns, a combi-melta and Multi-melta attack bike. This same unit is spammed five times. Then in the other list we have one with dual flamers, combi-melta and a heavy bolter, two with dual plasmaguns, combi-plasma and multi-meltas and two with meltas, combi-meltas and multi-meltas. There is practically no points difference, but the second armylist is by miles more interesting and adaptable.

It may be more interesting (to you at least - not to me). But teh first list is more competetitive - and that's what's interesting (to me).

[russellmoo]

I think AV13 spam works in a certain meta- (it is really good against armies that like to take a ton of Str 6 and Str 7) So if you know your opponents have geared up to take out Rhinos, Venoms, and Ork Trukks, throwing in a bunch of AV13 will really mess with these lists- however, if you are dealing with players who tend to love using melta weapons you might be better off just spamming cheap AV10 or 11.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Blood Angels also have the edge of frontal AV13 Furioso Dreads, sort of their answer to the Ironclad (though the Ironclad was more or less a Codex Marine answer to the Furioso in the first place :P). AV13 on Walkers makes Powerfists only penetrate 1/6 of the time and makes the Dread physically immune to Krak Grenades when in melee. But with Furiosos, the consensus seems to be to always deploy them from Drop Pods. Never deploy them via the red-headed stepchild of the Blood Angels' codex, the Stormraven. ...Yet.

I was never really that enamored with AV13 spam as I built up my Blood Angels. Yeah, I'll pick up enough Razorbacks and Baals to get by for the moment (I believe they'll have tactical strengths and merits in 6th beyond maximizing the obnoxiousness in one's list), but I'm trying to get ahead of the curve. Just imagine how good Stormravens are gonna' be once the new and inevitably brokensauce flyer rules hit in 6th edition, at which point you'll inevitably wind up seeing all those "worthless" Predators doing the Tango del Carnifex on ebay. If you haven't bought anything yet, and if you don't have a bottomless wallet, wait. We're entirely too close to a new edition that could radically change things to make a bunch of impulse buys based on exploiting 5th edition's vehicle damage table and absurdly forgiving transport rules.

[El_Machinae]

I think AV13 spam works in a certain meta- (it is really good against armies that like to take a ton of Str 6 and Str 7) So if you know your opponents have geared up to take out Rhinos, Venoms, and Ork Trukks, throwing in a bunch of AV13 will really mess with these lists- however, if you are dealing with players who tend to love using melta weapons you might be better off just spamming cheap AV10 or 11.

Ah, that makes sense. There're armies that can be somewhat prolific with str 6. My experience is that the 'prolific' inevitably is less than str 5. I found the fixation on '13' to be strange. The difference between 14 and 13 is often rather clear, and so I was wondering why it was so 'obvious' to favor 13 over 14

[Infidel]

As far as AV13 spam goes, I've always wanted to try a 2xCCB, 1~2 Stalkers, 3~4 Ghost Arks (2 as bunker for Lance/Chrono court) and then 3 Doomsday Arks - A total of 13 tanks.

Granted, that's nearly 2500pt worth of tanks, but you can do similar things on a budget by taking Annihilation Barges instead of Doomsday Arks, cut back on Ghost Arks and drop the Stalker and still be reasonably spammy - at 1500 you can take 2 CCB, 2 Ghost Arks + Lance/Chrono Court + 3 Annihilation Barges for a total of 7 AV13 tanks with another 110pt worth of whatever else you fancy.