Corner an Abom

[SteelTitan]

I just read through the Random Movement rules and I think a case can be made that the pivot is not part of the random movement which says that 'if it comes into contact, it is a charge'. You first pivot, THEN roll for how far the model moves randomly.

If so, the pivot cannot take you within 1" as it is not part of the random movement (a pivot is hardly random now is it ) and thus this tactic would indeed work on the HPA (or Steamtank )

And I kinda agree with Judochop, I don't really feel sorry for Skaven.


EDIT: I actually asked the same question here in regards to the Doomwheel: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...g-a-doomwheel)

[Texhnolyze]

Isnt the abom block in the same league as impossible charge block with eagles ?

Like this;



Just an a$$y way of (ab)using the rules ?

[Wesser]

If so, the pivot cannot take you within 1" as it is not part of the random movement (a pivot is hardly random now is it ) and thus this tactic would indeed work on the HPA (or Steamtank )

All of their movement is random movement. It's special rule, not a measure of how you actual move the model. It's not like you roll a scatter dice for its movement either.

Anyhow the rule seems clear. If the Abo using its normal move can get into contacty then it has charged. Since it has to get within 1' to charge it can simply make a turn and move into you. Since it doesnt even have to declare charges it therefor follows that it can also move within 1' inch of you at any time as long as it ends its move more than 1' away

Ergo this tactic won't work...no big loss anyway. Skavenslaves or giant rats would prolly take care of the fast cavalry before it became a problem

[decker_cky]

Isnt the abom block in the same league as impossible charge block with eagles ?

Like this;



Just an a$$y way of (ab)using the rules ?

Wouldn't that rules situation just be dealt with by charging both units, forcing the eagles to wheel to the horde?

I'd put it more akin to the skirmish blocks on charges, where the skirmishing unit becomes impossible to charge because of tightening ranks moving it out of the charge possibility (needing more than a 90 degree wheel).

[Texhnolyze]

Wouldn't that rules situation just be dealt with by charging both units, forcing the eagles to wheel to the horde?

I'd put it more akin to the skirmish blocks on charges, where the skirmishing unit becomes impossible to charge because of tightening ranks moving it out of the charge possibility (needing more than a 90 degree wheel).

Nope it wouldn't, the unit has to charge the front arc of one of the eagles to make the charge legal, and they can't since the other eagle is blocking the way.

[Tarian]

Nope it wouldn't, the unit has to charge the front arc of one of the eagles to make the charge legal, and they can't since the other eagle is blocking the way.

Why can't they just flank charge the Eagle...?

[theunwantedbeing]

Why can't they just flank charge the Eagle...?

The unit is considered to be starting in the front arc, so has to charge that bit.
It's an unusual quirk of the charging rules.

Just think of it like trying to charge the flank of an enemy, despite starting directly infront of them.
You can see the flank, but you aren't allowed to charge it...even though you could likely reach the flank as well.

[Texhnolyze]

Why can't they just flank charge the Eagle...?

Because the majority of the units front rank is in the Eagles front arc. So they have to charge the front of the eagle, but there is no way that can be done...

[GodlessM]

Interesting scenario. Unfortunately the HPA's forward arc is determined after it pivots or the random move rules wouldn't work at all since it tells you to measure the distance of the dice rolls(which is after the pivot) to determine if it meets its charge range. It can just turn a little bit, move forward half a inch and clip your fast cav, then you'll have to deal with the D6 impact hits which will probably cost you the combat.

No this is wrong. It cannot pivot to within 1" of an enemy unit. Basic rules of Warhammer.

[dutchwarlord]

Is it not that you can't end your move within 1 inch of another unit?

At least that's how we're playing it. Seems to be more logically too.

[Lord Inquisitor]

There is no rule that prevents pivoting within 1", there is a rule that prevents movement within 1". There is no distinction between the two. The random movement rules don't allow you come within 1" explicitly, but it is implicit. There's no rationale that the pivot obeys the 1" rule but the move does not.

Abombs are annoying but this doesn't even work, unlike the stupid double eagle shenanigans.

[AntaresCD]

There is no rule that prevents pivoting within 1", there is a rule that prevents movement within 1". There is no distinction between the two. The random movement rules don't allow you come within 1" explicitly, but it is implicit. There's no rationale that the pivot obeys the 1" rule but the move does not.

Abombs are annoying but this doesn't even work, unlike the stupid double eagle shenanigans.

This is one of the few times I'll have to disagree with you LI. As stupid as it sounds, the 1" rule only makes exceptions to charging (playing it any other way is technically a house rule, despite the fluff). Pivoting falls under the perview of this rule. The only pivots that don't are the so-called "virtual" pivots that you use in certain cases (such as fleeing) where it specifically tells you to ignore unit clipping and distances.

Further the Random Movement special rule is written in such a way (for better or worse) that the sequence of events is as follows:
1) Pivot
2) Roll Distance
3) Measure ahead to see if you would contact an enemy unit
4a) If you would contact an enemy unit it now counts as a charge against that unit with no charge reaction possible
4b) If you would not contact an enemy unit you move straight forward the rolled distance (stopping 1" short, as usual, of impassable terrain and friendly units)

Since a pivot *is* movement that step is restricted by the 1" rule so you can stop someone from pivoting by parking 1" to a flank. Then they are forced to do their random movement forward. You only check for the "charge" later in the sequence of events. You can't use the pivot to "charge" even if you did house rule the 1" rule on pivots. Although if you did implement that house rule it would make sense to house rule pivots causing a "charge" too.

That being said it is clearly a cheesy thing to do and I would frown on anyone doing it in a friendly setting, but it is perfectly in the rules so in any cutthroat environment, be prepared for it.

Page references for those wishing to follow along in the BRB: 1" Rule - page 13, Random Movement - page 74.

Edit: Forgot to add this, but there is even a reference in the FAQ that specifically mentions that pivoting on the spot counts as movement (in a question about Move or Fire).

[dementian]

Edit: Forgot to add this, but there is even a reference in the FAQ that specifically mentions that pivoting on the spot counts as movement (in a question about Move or Fire).

So pivoting on the spot counts as movement...and if my movement takes me into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging...

[AntaresCD]

So pivoting on the spot counts as movement...and if my movement takes me into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging...

Not quite, saying that if your movement takes you into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging is a convienent summary, but is not quite accurate to the (poorly written) random movement rules. A correct summary is that if your forward movement would take you into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging. It sounds stupid but they make it pretty clear. You pivot, roll, then measure ahead to see if you would hit an enemy.

I'll say this again, pivot blocking is legal, but really cheesy and I would refuse to play anyone in a friendly environment who persisted in doing these kinds of tricks since it's exploiting the rules.

[Wesser]

The unit is considered to be starting in the front arc, so has to charge that bit.
It's an unusual quirk of the charging rules.

Just think of it like trying to charge the flank of an enemy, despite starting directly infront of them.
You can see the flank, but you aren't allowed to charge it...even though you could likely reach the flank as well.

A truth with modifications there

Had a situation where a chariot was in the flank of another unit. Unfortunately due to impassable terrain there was no room in the flank, not evn for clipping. The rules for closing door however meant that the unit in question had to wheel enough so that the chariot could charge its flank. In this case the unit woulld "accidentally" charge one eagle and then force both eagles to "close the door".

Closing the door and the "Unusual situations" bit nailed the impossible charge dead, at least for me.

[Wesser]

Oh and by the way. Random Movement isnt movement...its a compulsory movement which means that they're allowed to move within 1' of another unit even if not specifically charging.

Ask Goblin Fanatics if ya dont believe me

[Lord Inquisitor]

This is one of the few times I'll have to disagree with you LI. As stupid as it sounds, the 1" rule only makes exceptions to charging (playing it any other way is technically a house rule, despite the fluff). Pivoting falls under the perview of this rule. The only pivots that don't are the so-called "virtual" pivots that you use in certain cases (such as fleeing) where it specifically tells you to ignore unit clipping and distances.

Further the Random Movement special rule is written in such a way (for better or worse) that the sequence of events is as follows:
1) Pivot
2) Roll Distance
3) Measure ahead to see if you would contact an enemy unit
4a) If you would contact an enemy unit it now counts as a charge against that unit with no charge reaction possible
4b) If you would not contact an enemy unit you move straight forward the rolled distance (stopping 1" short, as usual, of impassable terrain and friendly units)

Your argument, therefore, is that the Random Movement gives (implicit) exception for the move after pivoting to ignore the 1" rule, but not before that? It is a reasonable argument.

Unfortunately the RM rules don't actually give any exception other than implicit as to which part of the move is excepted from the 1" rule.

[AntaresCD]

Your argument, therefore, is that the Random Movement gives (implicit) exception for the move after pivoting to ignore the 1" rule, but not before that? It is a reasonable argument.

Unfortunately the RM rules don't actually give any exception other than implicit as to which part of the move is excepted from the 1" rule.

Close. My argument is that the RM rules gives no exception at all for the 1" rule and that at step 4a your move has now become a charge, which does carry an explicit exception to the 1" rule.

[Aéquitas]

If my opponent would do this I would just end the game and give him the win he craves for so badly. I play this game to have a good time and people searching for ways to exploit the rules just ruins that. Surprised people can hate an army so much that they have to resort to stuff like this. But to each their own ofcourse

Same for the eagles thing btw. Reading the tactics forums here is not really making me happy haha

[Lord Inquisitor]

Close. My argument is that the RM rules gives no exception at all for the 1" rule and that at step 4a your move has now become a charge, which does carry an explicit exception to the 1" rule.

I see your argument. It seems pretty solid. I will give this a bit more thought.