Corner an Abom

[Iraf]

However a model with random movement does not make a normal charge, it makes a random move (pivot, roll, move) and if this brings it into contact it counts as a charge but is not subject to the normal restrictions.

Wrong, pg 74 "if the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges..."

[HurrDurr]

@ Beastlord, Yeah..... except no, because Sigmar forbids it.

Warning, strongly expressed opinion below:

This thread has degraded to lawyering v lawyering. Just because someone doesn't like the 1 inch rule being used to block a RM units movement, now the 1 inch rule is just a "polite practice" and not a rule. And units with RM are now capable of spinning in place to charge. It's just seeing who can be more abusive to "put the other guy in their place".

Back semi-ontopic if this is an underhanded tactic than so is redirecting, no discussion aloud. There is no way the rules intended for units to be suicidal(except for the crazy suicidal ones). And as silly as it looks for fast cav to force a tank not to turn, it's just as bad for a 5000 point unit of black orcs to be turned 45 degrees because of a 50 point eagle as far as realism goes. Therefore anybody who claims one is abusive but the other isn't is just picking favorites. Personally I find things like deploying the RM models sideways so they can pivot for the free inches to be a refreshing extra bit of depth to the game. How much less depth would this game have if redirecting, small deployment drops to out-deply and anything that wasn't "intended" was removed from the game.

I think I look at this through the same light Godless expressed earlier, if people wanted to talk about whether or not this "legal" move is an exploit/overpowered and should be banned or comped is one thing, but creating pivot charges out of spite is just as bad. It's like the cannon line of sight versus arc of vision shenanigans all over again. /endrant

I think the direction this thread should be going in is deciding whether or not this situation meets the standards that the two unchargable eagles picture meets in terms of abusive play vs game meta-mechanics, because I think we can all agree that's insanely abusive. The flaws in trying to argue a situation like this are obvious, GW never accounted for this and there is literally 0 content in the book regarding it(this thread wouldn't exist if they did), that or bad wording in a book that relies on explicitly stated rules leaves this open to interpretation. Either way the answers aren't in the book, it just gets close sometimes. It does seem fair that a unit with a 360 degree charge arc have a counter balance, saying the chance it rolls low is kind of moot when you think about the chance it rolls high. (It is slower on average though compared to 5 + 2d6 so idk)

[LiddellHart]

This thread has degraded to lawyering v lawyering. Just because someone doesn't like the 1 inch rule being used to block a RM units movement, now the 1 inch rule is just a "polite practice" and not a rule. And units with RM are now capable of spinning in place to charge. It's just seeing who can be more abusive to "put the other guy in their place".

Have you read the posts above? Or is this deliberate hyperbole to ridicule the discussion?
Welcome to the rules subforum where people like to discuss rules in depth.

Back semi-ontopic if this is an underhanded tactic than so is redirecting, no discussion aloud.

Well let me continue whispering: redirecting is a basic game mechanic, which rules are undisputed. In this thread were trying to find out whether the rules support "cornering" or not. That's the big difference.
I admit my initial response was directed at the underhandedness of this "tactic", but meanwhile a serious discussion has evolved, deserving comments with arguments.

it's just as bad for a 5000 point unit of black orcs to be turned 45 degrees because of a 50 point eagle as far as realism goes.

A 5000 point unit of black orcs shouldn't complain about being outmanoeuvred.

I think the direction this thread should be going in is deciding whether or not this situation meets the standards that the two unchargable eagles picture meets in terms of abusive play vs game meta-mechanics, because I think we can all agree that's insanely abusive.

That would certainly make an interesting discussion, and I agree on the abusive-part wholeheartedly. Maybe you could start a thread with this subject somewhere?

[LiddellHart]

Wrong, pg 74 "if the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges..."

Hmm, interesting point. Upon rereading that passage it seems a Random Mover can fail a charge if it can't properly reach the appropriate facing. That's a good point.
However, I don't think this applies to a bump during the pivot. You do not aim for a facing, then to discover whether you can reach it.
Instead the enemy is standing very close, and you hit them where you hit them. Just close the door after first contact. Often you will hit the right facing or a corner. In the latter situation you can close the door against the right facing anyway.

I admit rules are not clear on this one, but I also imagine the situation where this doesn't work out to be very rare.

[Valaraukar]

Wrong, pg 74 "if the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges..."

I disagree although am not arrogant enough to assume my interpretation MUST be correct and therefore label you as 'wrong' this statement is not specific enough and could refer to any part or parts of the charging mechanics, it clearly does not include all of them as the move has already been made at this time therefore the 90 degree pivot cannot be a part of it for starters. Furthermore your objection seems to be around the closing of the door and making contact with the correct facing, however contact will be made with the corner of the unit which is an intrinsic part of both front and flank facings of the enemy and therefore imo meets the requirement of making contact with the front facing in which it starts. As to the closing of the door this is NOT a requirement as there is a specific exception dealing with where this is not possible and in such cases the enemy closes the door instead.

As I see it the random movement model pivots, if it has a small base such as a spawn this should be possible without making contact and can then move into contact forward, if it has a large base such as a steam tank or abomination this pivot moves it into contact with the corner and thus as above correct facing of the enemy and as per the rules for random movement counts as a charge which must now upon making contact follow the remainder of the normal charge rules that being closing of the door and maximising etc. which in this case is impossible for the charging unit and thus the enemy closes the door instead. Their is no specific stipulation I have found that this must be against eh charging units front or original facing, thoughts?

[Valaraukar]

<snip> Often you will hit the right facing or a corner. In the latter situation you can close the door against the right facing anyway.

I admit rules are not clear on this one, but I also imagine the situation where this doesn't work out to be very rare.

Not quite closing the door is described as a wheel and a wheel can only be made forward around one of a units front corners, which makes this impossible but I don't see that as a problem as there are rules to cover this namely the enemy closing the door where this is impossible for the charging unit as outlined above.

[Ponge]

Situations and discussions like these is what keeps me away from the WHFB tournament scene.

[SteelTitan]

I don't know if that makes sense. I can imagine that many regular tournament players know how this situation is called by referees.

The only problem I see is that if one player thinks this is allowed and the other doesn't. One player moves up to block, the other charges regardless...even if the referee calls it in favour of the first, he just lost his blocker...can't really go back an entire turn.

[AntaresCD]

I've stayed out of this one for a while to see where it goes, but there seems to be some selective quoting and reading going on, so I'm going to throw in again.

The relevant paragraphs for this discussion are the second and third ones so I'll go through those.

Second paragraph: "Models with Random Movement cannot declare charges, and are always moved in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase. When the model moves, first pivot it about its centre to face the direction in which you wish to travel. Then, roll the dice shown in the model's profile. Finally, move the model directly forwards a number of inches equal to the total rolled by the dice. No other pivots can be made."

So what does this paragraph say?
1) Models with RM cannot declare charges and move in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase (given, and not under discussion).
2) To move a model with RM you first pivot in the direction you wish to travel.
3) After you pivot you roll the dice to determine how far they go.
4) Then you move directly forward that many inches (emphasis on directly forward since it disallows other pivots).

So the process of making a Random Move is now established. It a 3 step process: pivot, roll, and then move forward.

Third paragraph: "There's a chance that the model's peculiar movement will cause it to come into contact with an enemy, so measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charging and using the distance rolled as the charge range. Charge reactions cannot be declared against enemies with the Random Movement special rule - the enemy find it impossible to recognize the danger unit it is far too late!"

So what does this paragraph say?
1) A random move might bring you into contact with an enemy so before you move you need to measure the distance to check for this.
2) If said measuring shows you would contact an enemy then this movement now counts as a charge and is resolved as a normal charge and the random movement roll counts as the rolled charge range.
3) No charge reactions can be taken against such a charge (given, not under discussion).

So here is where we get how a unit with RM gets to charge something. If your movement would bring you into contact then it's a charge. So I just pivot into that annoying eagle and it's a charge right? End of story! Sorry, but not quite. Let's look at that third paragraph again (keeping in the parts that people seem to be leaving out):

"There's a chance that the model's peculiar movement will cause it to come into contact with an enemy, so measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging..."

Please note the underlined portion. It tells you to measure the distance before the model is moved. Let's review the process for a RM:
1) Pivot.
2) Roll.
3) Move forward.

Where in that process is the distance you move known? Only from step 2 and forward. There is nothing to measure prior to the pivot (i.e. before step 1). There is nothing to measure after the pivot but bfore the dice are rolled (i.e. between steps 1 and 2). There is something to measure after you actually roll but before you move (i.e. between steps 2 and 3). There is technically something to measure after you move (i.e. after step 3) but that would violate the rest of the sentence since you must measure before you move.

This makes it abundantly clear that the measuring happens after you roll which means the pivot is already done. The pivot is not part of the potential charge and therefore cannot violate the 1" rule.

To make it simpler you can insert this into the RM movement process (as we have done prior) and have this clear set of steps:
1) Pivot.
2) Roll.
3) Measure ahead to see if you would contact an enemy.
4a) If you would contact an enemy then the RM has now become a charge with no charge reaction allowed.
4b) If you would not contact an enemy then just move forward the rolled distance (stopping 1" short of friendly units and impassible terrain).

While this has been pointed out by a number of people, including myself, it seems people forget that while yes the word "move" as used in the third paragraph is ambiguous, you can figure out exactly where to place that measurement which then clarifies that the move in that context is referring to the forward movement after the pivot.

I will say again that this is a bit cheesy, but it is legal. Personally, I frown on it in a friendly enviornment, but that's up to your local gaming environment.

If you can show how the ever important sentence regarding the measurement can be logically taken to mean measuring before you roll or how the roll is to happen before the pivot, I'm all ears. If you can't, then I find it difficult to see how you can read the process for RM as anything other than what is outlined above.

[T10]

Hmm, interesting point. Upon rereading that passage it seems a Random Mover can fail a charge if it can't properly reach the appropriate facing. .

Yes, if the move is sufficient to bring the abomination into contact with an enemy (with a straight-ahead-move) then it must move into contact as a normal model would: a single wheel to maximise the number of models fighting, must contact appropriate side, free wheel to close the door.

Bear in mind that getting the abomination into corner contact with a single model may be sufficient, and if the abomination is unable to close the door the target unit is allowed to do so.

[Iraf]

I disagree although am not arrogant enough to assume my interpretation MUST be correct and therefore label you as 'wrong' this statement is not specific enough and could refer to any part or parts of the charging mechanics, it clearly does not include all of them as the move has already been made at this time therefore the 90 degree pivot cannot be a part of it for starters. Furthermore your objection seems to be around the closing of the door and making contact with the correct facing, however contact will be made with the corner of the unit which is an intrinsic part of both front and flank facings of the enemy and therefore imo meets the requirement of making contact with the front facing in which it starts. As to the closing of the door this is NOT a requirement as there is a specific exception dealing with where this is not possible and in such cases the enemy closes the door instead.

As I see it the random movement model pivots, if it has a small base such as a spawn this should be possible without making contact and can then move into contact forward, if it has a large base such as a steam tank or abomination this pivot moves it into contact with the corner and thus as above correct facing of the enemy and as per the rules for random movement counts as a charge which must now upon making contact follow the remainder of the normal charge rules that being closing of the door and maximising etc. which in this case is impossible for the charging unit and thus the enemy closes the door instead. Their is no specific stipulation I have found that this must be against eh charging units front or original facing, thoughts?

It has nothing to do with arrogance. You specifically said that it is not subject to the normal restriction, and the sentence specifically says "and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges."

[Bodysnatcher]

That eagle thing is stupid - the unit would obviously just charge the flanks. Some people need to apply a bit of common sense to their games....

To me the eagle one looks like you'd just move into the corner and the eagle would swing in to the charging unit. But then some claim that's 'not hitting the facing' or whatever.

[HurrDurr]

Yes, if the move is sufficient to bring the abomination into contact with an enemy (with a straight-ahead-move) then it must move into contact as a normal model would: a single wheel to maximise the number of models fighting, must contact appropriate side, free wheel to close the door.

Bear in mind that getting the abomination into corner contact with a single model may be sufficient, and if the abomination is unable to close the door the target unit is allowed to do so.

Can closing the door be used when a charging unit makes contact and cant close the door because its entire wheel isnt enough? thats sort of like finishing the charge for the enemy, the way i understood the charged unit closing the door was when there were obstructions in the way like terrain.