Can an Inquisitor have Terminator Armour?

[Askil the Undecided]

It always tickles me that:

A) people assume the much touted independant and free-spirited Inquisitors have superiors because (the very entertaining but canonically unsound) Dan Abnett made it seem to be the case in his series of books.

B) people believe agents with absolute power in a fuedal system have to pay for services.

It is the duty of all individuals in the Imperium to provide whatever services they might be called upon to perform to the Imperial authorities, it is both criminal and heretical to refuse.

As such the only way to legally refuse an Inqisitor's request for an item is to claim (truthfully or not) to be incapable of providing it for some reason.

[Harwammer]

Wouldn't the biggest hurdle to getting a terminator suit made be the amount of time fabrication takes?

[Iron_Lord]

It always tickles me that:

A) people assume the much touted independant and free-spirited Inquisitors have superiors because (the very entertaining but canonically unsound) Dan Abnett made it seem to be the case in his series of books.

It was continued though- with there being much mention of senior Inquisitors in the Dark Heresy books.

They are indeed independent- but only up to a point- there's still an element of them having to provide a very good reason for not obeying the instructions of the head of their Ordos for the sector- much less the head of the Inquisition as a whole for the sector.

[Hideous Loon]

Inquisitorial levels: It's a "first of equals" kind of deal. Even in a non-hierarchical system, seniority and experience is valued.

As for El_Machinae's tangential question: I don't really see the point of vat-grown bio-augmentation malarkies for inquisitors. If you're a combat-focused inquisitor (who loves shock-and-awe-tactics), wouldn't you rather work out than have muscles implanted in you? And even if you did all that (if you got the extra muscles, and your skeleton was enlarged), you'd still be an inferior Space Marine (since you'd lack all the Marine-specific organs, which have to be implanted during puberty and whatnot). Go for a massive sword, a gun that shoots rockets and a suit of power armour instead.

Tactical Dreadnought Armour, as others have said, will not work properly without the black carapace (interface, blah blah). However, even a badly functioning suit of TDA is better than nothing. The rule regarding wargear acquisition for inquisitors seems to be: "If a member of the Imperial Inquisition asks you for the last cookie in the bag, you'll give it to him, or suffer the consequences."

[Harwammer]

Do power/terminator armour really function so terribly without a black carapace? Plenty of guard characters seem to cope fine with their bionic limbs/organs and really these suits are essentially bionic exoskeletons/sensory arrays (though admittedly not hard-wired). Have the forums exaggerated the drawbacks that are part of having no black carapace? Weren't TDA suits based off non-astarte tech to begin with?

[stormblade]

I don't think it's that much of a problem. People probably just tend to exageratte the 'not quite as good as an astartes' thing.
a solid layer of ceramite that allowes you to walk in it can't be bad either way.

[Lord Inquisitor]

A) people assume the much touted independant and free-spirited Inquisitors have superiors because (the very entertaining but canonically unsound) Dan Abnett made it seem to be the case in his series of books.

A hierarchy within the Inquisition has always been canon to some degree from the inception of the Inquisition within the background, most notably the existence of (ahem) Lord Inquisitors which in some fashion have oversight within the Inquisition. Originally, the inner circle of the Inquisition was the Ordo Malleus but that got changed. Draco had superiors within the Inquisition as well as Eisenhorn. While many sources have a less structured organisation than the Eisenhorn books, more of a first-among-equals sort of thing, the structures nevertheless exist. Really, a degree of structure must exist, formal or not. All of the Inquisitorial assets must be highly organised - stormtroopers and black ships and soforth. Between Abnett's formal heirarchy and Thorpe's very fluid description of "How the Inquisition Operates" from the Thorian sourcebook, junior Inquisitors fall under the auspices of the Inquisitor Lords. In both cases Inquisitors absolutely operate very independently and many "off the grid" (particularly those more radical), but it makes a lot of sense if individual Inquisitors should report at least broadly speaking to a more central Inquisitorial authority, be it a formal Ordo Inquisitor Lord or simply a cadre of peers. This would allow for tabs to be kept at least broadly as to where Inquisitors are and what they are investigating - should one go missing, for example, or should a conclave need be called. The production of the rosettes themselves and the appointment of Inquisitors must have some central organisation - if a rosette carries the seal of ultimate authority up to and including exterminatus there must be a way of ensuring that it is verifiable! After all, give one group ultimate authority and suddenly impersonation is a real risk. There must be an infrastructure in place that would allow, say a battlegroup commander to verify an Inquisitor's seal/codes. That goes double for Exterminatus craft or Deathwatch/Grey Knight deployment. How do you ensure, particularly in a universe fraught with shape-shifters and psykers, that the Inquisitor is who he says he is, if there is not some form of central command to verify their identities with?

Personally I prefer Abnett's Inquisition to Thorpe's Inquisition, it seems a lot more believable that there would be some form of internal organisation to the Inquisition, political webs within and between the Ordos. However, even in Thorpe's work there is still a de facto organisation. (Also Abnett's books are canon, even if contradictory to other canon. Personally, I reconcile them by imagining that Scarus sector has a more formal hierarchy that has been set up by some influential Inquisitor Lords of all three major ordos. Other areas may have much more fluid organisation within the Inquisition.)

[Sai-Lauren]

A hierarchy within the Inquisition has always been canon to some degree from the inception of the Inquisition within the background, most notably the existence of (ahem) Lord Inquisitors which in some fashion have oversight within the Inquisition. Originally, the inner circle of the Inquisition was the Ordo Malleus but that got changed. Draco had superiors within the Inquisition as well as Eisenhorn. While many sources have a less structured organisation than the Eisenhorn books, more of a first-among-equals sort of thing, the structures nevertheless exist. Really, a degree of structure must exist, formal or not. All of the Inquisitorial assets must be highly organised - stormtroopers and black ships and soforth. Between Abnett's formal heirarchy and Thorpe's very fluid description of "How the Inquisition Operates" from the Thorian sourcebook, junior Inquisitors fall under the auspices of the Inquisitor Lords. In both cases Inquisitors absolutely operate very independently and many "off the grid" (particularly those more radical), but it makes a lot of sense if individual Inquisitors should report at least broadly speaking to a more central Inquisitorial authority, be it a formal Ordo Inquisitor Lord or simply a cadre of peers. This would allow for tabs to be kept at least broadly as to where Inquisitors are and what they are investigating - should one go missing, for example, or should a conclave need be called. The production of the rosettes themselves and the appointment of Inquisitors must have some central organisation - if a rosette carries the seal of ultimate authority up to and including exterminatus there must be a way of ensuring that it is verifiable! After all, give one group ultimate authority and suddenly impersonation is a real risk. There must be an infrastructure in place that would allow, say a battlegroup commander to verify an Inquisitor's seal/codes. That goes double for Exterminatus craft or Deathwatch/Grey Knight deployment. How do you ensure, particularly in a universe fraught with shape-shifters and psykers, that the Inquisitor is who he says he is, if there is not some form of central command to verify their identities with?

Personally I prefer Abnett's Inquisition to Thorpe's Inquisition, it seems a lot more believable that there would be some form of internal organisation to the Inquisition, political webs within and between the Ordos. However, even in Thorpe's work there is still a de facto organisation. (Also Abnett's books are canon, even if contradictory to other canon. Personally, I reconcile them by imagining that Scarus sector has a more formal hierarchy that has been set up by some influential Inquisitor Lords of all three major ordos. Other areas may have much more fluid organisation within the Inquisition.)

Agreed - as a corollary, James Bond can do pretty much what he likes in the field, but at the end of the day, he still has to answer to M.

Remember, the Inquistion isn't just the field Inquisitors - Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Vail, Draco etc, their retinues and personal holdings - it's the Antarctic headquarters, the regional fortresses, with all the scribes, archives and the senior inquisitors, the training facilities and the Stormtroopers, the hidden bases to imprison individuals and store items, the Inquisitions own vessels and so on.

Without the full organisation of the Inquisition to back it up, the rosette means absolutely nothing.

[El_Machinae]

As for El_Machinae's tangential question: I don't really see the point of vat-grown bio-augmentation malarkies for inquisitors. If you're a combat-focused inquisitor (who loves shock-and-awe-tactics), wouldn't you rather work out than have muscles implanted in you? And even if you did all that (if you got the extra muscles, and your skeleton was enlarged), you'd still be an inferior Space Marine (since you'd lack all the Marine-specific organs, which have to be implanted during puberty and whatnot). Go for a massive sword, a gun that shoots rockets and a suit of power armour instead.

It was a thought-experiment so that the ][ could fight into the TDA

[Iron_Lord]

I'm inclined to suspect there's been "man-sized" terminator armour, just as there's been man-sized power armour, throughout the history of the Imperium.

[Chem-Dog]

Heldane in First and Only had his skull surgically altered to basically scare the living manure out of people, plus there's all the cosmetic duplicates of the Inquisitor in Blood Pact, so I guess it's possible, so long as the Inquisitor can justify the expense of it to their superiors, or can find a medicae who's willing to do it, most likely in return for Inquisitor not arresting them for whatever they're doing in the first place.

The Space Wolves rebuilding Casper Hauser in Prospero Burns was as much as you'd ever need, you could effectively redo a body at any time it was necessary (providing the wait isn't a big issue, one assumes the age of the individual before starting the process would be a contributory factor). If the technology was available in the Imperium 10K years later (and if anyone has hold of it, the Inquisition's a pretty good bet) there would be no hurdles whatsoever in building a body that suits your purpose. I wonder if some of the "juvenat" treatments actually follow this principal.

Even then it would actually take a lot less than that, we can already grow bone from samples, if an Inquisitor was desperate enough to need extended limbs or, perhaps, replacements due to damage and/or disease) it wouldn't be too hard to have a few spares/enlargements/augmentations built.

It always tickles me that:

A) people assume the much touted independant and free-spirited Inquisitors have superiors because (the very entertaining but canonically unsound) Dan Abnett made it seem to be the case in his series of books.

Even if you aren't going to accept the model presented in Eisenhorn/Ravenor* (which is fair enough, the Thorian Sourcebook seems to ignore it totally) you're going to have to acknowledge the fact that at it's most basic level the Inquisition is a Peer Monitored organisation. I think it's been well established that, within the Inquisition, a peer is not necessarily a friend. Older, more well established and experienced inquisitors get made "Lords" and these guys are, to a degree, an internal monitoring system. Whether they do it openly or by covert means is largely irrelevant, it happens. To not do it would be grotesquely dangerous.

*As an aside. It could be argued that, given the relative proximity of the Eye of Terror, the Inquisition's behaviour is far more rigid and controlled than in other, less hazardous, regions.

B) people believe agents with absolute power in a fuedal system have to pay for services.

It is the duty of all individuals in the Imperium to provide whatever services they might be called upon to perform to the Imperial authorities, it is both criminal and heretical to refuse.

As such the only way to legally refuse an Inqisitor's request for an item is to claim (truthfully or not) to be incapable of providing it for some reason.[/QUOTE]

There is a matter of expediency. Sometimes it's easier to wave a big handful of cash at someone than scare the heck out of them by flashing your credentials. Even ignoring the normal arguments that an inquisitor might want his acquisitions to go unnoticed, being an Inquisitor who doesn't lean heavily on a Planetary Governor (or whomever) is likely to yield more cooperation than simply threatening to burn anyone that doesn't let you have your way.

Wouldn't the biggest hurdle to getting a terminator suit made be the amount of time fabrication takes?

I'm not sure it would amount to much for a single suit. It's hard to build and maintain yes, and we are told that each suit is a relic (not only for it's age but for the succession of heroes who have worn it) but the demands of equipping a squad or company with suits is far different from giving it to one guy.
The lack of Black Carapace interface and the significant reduction in size (and thus the amount of materials needed) in this instance might actually make it a lot easier to produce.

Do power/terminator armour really function so terribly without a black carapace? Plenty of guard characters seem to cope fine with their bionic limbs/organs and really these suits are essentially bionic exoskeletons/sensory arrays (though admittedly not hard-wired). Have the forums exaggerated the drawbacks that are part of having no black carapace? Weren't TDA suits based off non-astarte tech to begin with?

It's not that it functions terribly without, it just works better with. Think of it as power-assisted steering.
The plugs in an Astartes suit of armour allow the wearer to move it like his own body, the artificial musculature within the armour responds to the wearer's impulses in the same way as his own muscles do.
The range and accuracy of movement would be far superior to anything that's not plugged into the nervous system because the amount of additional microseconds that any other system would require to interpret and enact any required motion, it allows you to move instinctively rather than having to think about what it is you want to do, before you want to do it.
Bionics would, to some degree, do the same thing. At some level the replacement organelle is going to have to be "plugged in" to the wearer, be it neurally linked or simply spliced to muscle and tendon. And bionics are likely to be fairly light, it's no god being useful again because you've got a new arm if you throw your back out the first time you try to do anything with it. Armour is, by necessity, made of dense alloys and composites, it is going to be heavy.

I'm inclined to suspect there's been "man-sized" terminator armour, just as there's been man-sized power armour, throughout the history of the Imperium.

Indeed, TDA was partly based on environmental armour for maintenance to plasma engines (ironically plasma is now the bane of Terminators.... ) and other such hostile working conditions. And, if all equipment used by the Astartes is of STC provenance it must be designed to fit on standard humans initially, before Astartes existed.

[madd0ct0r]

lucky there were so many slave labour sub species about in those days (coff, ogryn) - without them Space marines would be banging their heads far more often...

[The Warmaster]

People have mentioned that, yes, it is possible - but ever since the Grey Knights Codex came out, the only non-Marines with access to it are Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus. The situation's probably different in Dark Heresy and Inquisitor, though.

(even Hector Rex is in Artificer Armour

That's always bugged me, since, if you look at him, the suit is quite obviously Terminator armour, even if the rules don't entirely reflect it. Perhaps they wanted to give him the advantage of sweeping advances?

[Lothlanathorian]

As for =][='s paying for things, I'd imagine that they'd essentially have a credit card with no limit that made money appear magically. They'd be able to 'print money,' as it were, when needed. It would only make sense. If they are operating inside of some cognito, they wouldn't want to go around flashing their credentials at passers-by so they'd use this Imperial Credits card or have a large sum of requisitioned cash somewhere they could use on an as-needed basis.

Also, things such as Ravenor being in his box/chair make no sense to me. The man exists in a universe where people can have their entire bodies replaced with robotics, have vat-grown muscle implants, surgically implanted glands that excrete various drugs, and he has the unlimited power and wealth that make the acquisition of any and all of these things very possible and realistic. Why is he inside of magical box/chair and crippled? Granted, I've only read the first novel thus far, so I don't know if he explains it away as a personal choice, but, aside from that, there is absolutely zero reason he doesn't have some sort of body beyond serving the plot, which is the weakest reason for it.

[Private_SeeD]

If that was true, there be less dreadnoughts since rather than be unturned they jst get re-built since most space marines think being turned into a dreadnought is a fate worse than death. Anyway like the post before me in the gk codec only ordo malleus inquisitor can have terminator armour for some reason.
I was always thought the inquisitors answered to the lords of terra in some way, or as stated in a peer to peer model. In the 'Emperors Gift' it's shown what happens what nearly oils happen and isn't that how they find and class inquisitors that have gone to the dark side? Two or three inquisitor voice concerns and a conclave is called?

On another note when looking up Hector Rex found this, jst mute the sound casue the music add's nothing to it, but it just looks so cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjALHppg1iA


Sent from my Omni tool via the Sol System Mass Relay

[Lupe]

If that was true, there be less dreadnoughts since rather than be unturned they jst get re-built since most space marines think being turned into a dreadnought is a fate worse than death.

As far as I can remember, that's only the case with Chaos Marines. Most loyalists tend to view it as the supreme honour - at least the guys deciding who gets to be put in a dreadnought do. So far, only Bjorn has ever officially expressed different views.

The Space Wolves rebuilding Casper Hauser in Prospero Burns was as much as you'd ever need, you could effectively redo a body at any time it was necessary (providing the wait isn't a big issue, one assumes the age of the individual before starting the process would be a contributory factor). If the technology was available in the Imperium 10K years later (and if anyone has hold of it, the Inquisition's a pretty good bet) there would be no hurdles whatsoever in building a body that suits your purpose. I wonder if some of the "juvenat" treatments actually follow this principal.

Plus, we know from First Heretic that you don't need full Astartes implantation to wear TDA. Kor Phaeron wears a suite, even though was deemed too old to be made a Space Marine. Now, as far as I recall, it's never been explicitly stated, but the only part of Space Marine conversion that really requires the candidate to be a pre-pubescent youth is the gene-seed implantation. Now, since all other implants depend on having the correct gene-seed, that means Kor Phaeron never got any of the fancy implants - such as the Black Carapce - either. So, unless there's a flaw in my logic, regular humans should be able to wear it, despite lacking the implant to properly interface with it.

[Lothlanathorian]

If that was true...

If what were true, that entire bodies could be replaced with bionics? Need I point out the Iron Hands, Straken's better half, the entire Adeptus Mechanicus...

[Private_SeeD]

If what were true, that entire bodies could be replaced with bionics? Need I point out the Iron Hands, Straken's better half, the entire Adeptus Mechanicus...

Yes but that's becasue its to do with their religion and they gradually turn them selves more bionic... well bar Strakne since i'm not a IG fan. and to reply to Lupe, your true about Bjorn but it also mentions this,

'.... Breaking the Black Blade is no mean feat, knight. I fear you earned yourself your own walking coffin with that deed.'
The thought turned my blood to ice.
'I would rather sleep in the Dead Fields, alongside my brothers.'
'There is a man who believes he has a choice about such things. Heroes never do.....

That's from Bjorn the Fell Handed speaking to Hyperion. but this is going off topic

[Sai-Lauren]

As for =][='s paying for things, I'd imagine that they'd essentially have a credit card with no limit that made money appear magically. They'd be able to 'print money,' as it were, when needed. It would only make sense. If they are operating inside of some cognito, they wouldn't want to go around flashing their credentials at passers-by so they'd use this Imperial Credits card or have a large sum of requisitioned cash somewhere they could use on an as-needed basis.

In the field, I'd imagine it's a combination of whatever they can requisition for the mission, various cut-out accounts set up by their Ordo and possibly their mentor, and dipping into their personal holdings that they then try and claim back as expenses.

Outside of that, it'll be a combination of the ability to prove they need it, and political maneuvering between themselves, their allies and opponents.

Also, things such as Ravenor being in his box/chair make no sense to me. The man exists in a universe where people can have their entire bodies replaced with robotics, have vat-grown muscle implants, surgically implanted glands that excrete various drugs, and he has the unlimited power and wealth that make the acquisition of any and all of these things very possible and realistic. Why is he inside of magical box/chair and crippled? Granted, I've only read the first novel thus far, so I don't know if he explains it away as a personal choice, but, aside from that, there is absolutely zero reason he doesn't have some sort of body beyond serving the plot, which is the weakest reason for it.

The highest echelons of the AM are about as far as they can go doing total cybernetic body replacement, and there's still a core of organic material in there.

They're also millenia old, well beyond senile, and even for them, death eventually arrives to claim them.

And it may be the case that some of the work they've had could only be done on Mars itself, or wherever the Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis has it's main Forge World. Even high-placed members of the Inquisition probably can't get access to certain procedures that the AM can.

In Ravenor's case, I always assumed that his injuries were simply far too severe to be able to be treated or the lost parts replaced, but his position and psychic abilities meant he was too useful to either allow to die, or to simply euthanise out of mercy.

Although, the good news is, he's probably in no pain - but only because he doesn't have any sensory nerves (or much of anything else) in his body anymore...

I was always thought the inquisitors answered to the lords of terra in some way, or as stated in a peer to peer model. In the 'Emperors Gift' it's shown what happens what nearly oils happen and isn't that how they find and class inquisitors that have gone to the dark side? Two or three inquisitor voice concerns and a conclave is called?

Well, Inquisitors answer to the Emperor first, then the rest of the Inquisition - but the most senior Inquisitor is one of the High Lords. So, technically, yes, they answer to the High Lords - but, as no one except the Emperor is beyond the remit of the Inquisition, the High Lords also answer to them.

[Eumerin]

B) people believe agents with absolute power in a fuedal system have to pay for services.

Yes, and no. Remember that because it's a feudal system, there are a lot of lords out there. And an inquisitor's basic "outside the system" nature means that while he has a lot of power, he's also dangerously exposed. An inquisitor that spends a lot of time abusing his position to obtain valuable and hard to find items is likely to experience a fatal "accident" when he ends up angering some powerful individual. And if the inquisitor in question has obtained a reputation for those kinds of abuses, then the person who investigates said inquisitor's "accident" is likely to either make a half-hearted attempt, or be a political enemy of the late inquisitor. That goes double if the angered individual is politically powerful (particularly if he has strong ties to the inquisition).

For instance, let's assume that a rogue trader legitimately stumbles across and salvages several old suits of power armor. The rogue trader in question contacts a forge world and offers to sell the suits because he realises that the Mechanicus of that forgeworld will be interested in studying the suits of power armor, which appear to have some interesting unique elements to them. But Inquisitor Richard gets wind of the discovery and decides that it would be neat to outfit himself and several of the members of his retinue in power armor. The rogue trader, having already made a lucrative deal with the Mechanicus, refuses. So Inquisitor Richard uses his inquisitorial powers to seize the vessel ("I need to investigate this ship for signs of corruption against the Emperor!") with the suits of power armor, and basically steals them. Shortly afterwards, representatives from the forge world arrive, but the rogue trader informs them that Inquisitor Richard has made off with the suits of power armor. So now the Mechanicus is ticked off at Inquisitor Richard. Furthermore, the rogue trader's charter was granted by a local chapter of the Adeptus Astartes roughly two millenia ago. The rogue trader's unhappy about Inquisitor Richard's actions, and word gets back to the chapter. They view the actions of Inquisitor Richard as a stain on their own honor (Inquisitor Richard has implied that a rogue trader family that was chartered by them - albeit two millenia ago - is engaging in heretical actions), and take offense as a result.

So now Inquisitor Richard has ticked off the Mechanicus and a local space marine chapter. The anger of the former probably means that at minimum, he's going to have trouble getting the Mechanicus to provide needed services. Sure, he can wave his inquisitorial badge around, but somehow his needed repairs always seem to take three times longer than they should. And the space marine chapter in question at minimum is going to be very reluctant to assign support in the event that Inquisitor Richard wants to call down the Wrath of the Emperor. At worst (and this is more likely if Inquisitor Richard has acquired a reputation for abusing his inquisitorial authority), Inquisitor Richard might just find himself downrange when a titan or battlebarge is about to start conducting some gunnery trials ("Honest! There wasn't supposed to be anyone in the area! We have no idea how Inquisitor Richard ended up in that area just as they started firing!").

And in the event of a "gunnery trial" or similar incident, throwing an underling to the wolves (in the case of the mechanicus and less powerful space marine chapters; more powerful space marine chapters might just be able to say "Oops!" and politely rebuff the follow-up inquisitorial investigators) will probably take care of the subsequent investigation into the inquisitor's "accidental" death.