Iron Blaster: Line of Sight

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

The question in summary would be this: because a Iron Blaster is a chariot, it can only shoot what it can see, and it can only see in it's forward arc. Thus, as it follows the rules of a chariot, in the shooting phase it may not make a pivot on the spot to shoot 360 degrees, am' I correct in assuming this?

We had a discussion amongst my gaming group the other day about this, the Ogre player in my group citing (claiming more or less) the Hellcannon has the ability for a pivot in the shooting phase for 360 degree line of sight, and is a monster. As a result he believes it sets a precedent for the Iron Blaster to have the same.

However, I disagreed stating that the Hellcannon specifically mentions that: "it shoots like a stone thrower and thus is allowed to pivot and fire blindly" and that the quote from the Iron Blaster's description (or what he read to me anyways) did not categorize the Iron Blaster with the same qualifications.

We will be going to a tournament soon, and I' am bringing this up to the T.O's rules group, however I would like to hear your thoughts.

P.S, if this is a really easy fix solved by the WoC and Ogre book, then it's a shame as I have neither and no one in our gaming group plays WoC -keep this in mind before rattling off at how "I need to look in the WoC book broooo."

[Fubar]

"Fire the cannon of the sky-titans in the same way as a normal cannon"

Therefore follow the rules for firing a cannon, pivoting in the shooting phase is one of those rules.

[Mostream]

And following the rules of the Cannon it can only pivot towards a target point it can see in its Line of sight.

[hamsterwheel]

I'm not sure how others play it but my Hellcannons do not pivot in the shooting phase, it's a monster so if I want to pivot it to hit a target then I do so during the movement phase and then I have to wait until my next turn's shooting phase since they FAQed that the hellcannon cannot move and fire. This makes very little difference in game play as you can position them at the beginning of the battle to hit pretty much anything. As far as the ironblaster, it can move and fire so I would expect the player to select his target in the movement phase and position itself accordingly.

[Asensur]

Can pivot, but after choosing target as all warmachines. You only need Line of Sight.

Same goes with the Catapult shot of the Thundertusk and any model that shoots like a cannon(not the grapeshot)/flamethrower/catapult.

However, if you make a Grapeshot you need to select a target within front arc, as it follows normal rules of Shooting when choosing targets.

So:

1. Choose target
--Catapults(indirect shot): no need of LoS or front arc.
--Cannons/Catapults/Flamethrowers: you need Line of Sight
--Boltthrowers/Cannons(Grapeshots): you need Line of sight and front Arc

2. Rotate (not pivot, it is not the same) model to face target.

3. Shoot.

[Montegue]

And following the rules of the Cannon it can only pivot towards a target point it can see in its Line of sight.

In the shooting phase, you pivot the cannon towards a target. Then you fire. The target is then in it's LOS, even if it was behind the cannon to begin with.

[The bearded one]

In the shooting phase, you pivot the cannon towards a target. Then you fire. The target is then in it's LOS, even if it was behind the cannon to begin with.

Right behind the cannon is also in line of sight. There is a difference between arc of sight, and line of sight that is not always noted clearly

If you stand behind a model (without any intervening models or terrain to block sight), you are outside the arc of sight, but still inside line of sight.

[Mostream]

Line of sight is defined as a models 'eye-view' (BRB page 10 under 'Line of sight').

Cannons measure all distances from the muzzle of the gun (BRB page 109 under 'the war machine') and take their Line of sight from the same chosen point. They can also only pivot after chosing target.

A models forward arc, when it comes to normal shooting, is used to see which targets are legal (BRB page 39 under 'check that the shooter can see the target'). In the case of a cannon it is not a condition to factor in when you choose your target (BRB page 112 under 'Choose target') where it merely states that a cannon only need to nominate a point within its line of sight and maximum range.

So the cannon needs line of sight from its muzzle to the target. Now, Since the section about Line of Sight isn't the best and GW only use 'a models eye-view' there's confusion about how much the cannon actually can draw it's line of sight to, so there I suggest a house rule, talking it over with your casual opponents or tournament organizers when you don't want to use the most important rule all the time. In my gaming group, we allow cannons a 180 degree Line of sight from the muzzle.

I strongly disagree with giving a warmachine a 360 degree Line of Sight that doesn't have rules that with good wording can support it.

Added order of business:

1 - Choose target within Line of Sight
2 - Pivot towards target
3 - Fire

supported by the Big Red Book (page 10, 109 and 112).

[Fubar]

Line of sight is defined as a models 'eye-view' (BRB page 10 under 'Line of sight').

Cannons measure all distances from the muzzle of the gun (BRB page 109 under 'the war machine') and take their Line of sight from the same chosen point. They can also only pivot after chosing target.

A models forward arc, when it comes to normal shooting, is used to see which targets are legal (BRB page 39 under 'check that the shooter can see the target'). In the case of a cannon it is not a condition to factor in when you choose your target (BRB page 112 under 'Choose target') where it merely states that a cannon only need to nominate a point within its line of sight and maximum range.

So the cannon needs line of sight from its muzzle to the target. Now, Since the section about Line of Sight isn't the best and GW only use 'a models eye-view' there's confusion about how much the cannon actually can draw it's line of sight to, so there I suggest a house rule, talking it over with your casual opponents or tournament organizers when you don't want to use the most important rule all the time. In my gaming group, we allow cannons a 180 degree Line of sight from the muzzle.

I strongly disagree with giving a warmachine a 360 degree Line of Sight that doesn't have rules that with good wording can support it.

Added order of business:

1 - Choose target within Line of Sight
2 - Pivot towards target
3 - Fire

supported by the Big Red Book (page 10, 109 and 112).

I agree with you in principle, but it kinda makes the whole pivoting aspect kinda pointless, what's it meant for? Added realism? Doesn't strike me as something that are would bothered to add in, when cannons are able to pinball around the stegadons skinks for example.

[hamsterwheel]

Line of sight is defined as a models 'eye-view' (BRB page 10 under 'Line of sight').

Cannons measure all distances from the muzzle of the gun (BRB page 109 under 'the war machine') and take their Line of sight from the same chosen point. They can also only pivot after chosing target.

A models forward arc, when it comes to normal shooting, is used to see which targets are legal (BRB page 39 under 'check that the shooter can see the target'). In the case of a cannon it is not a condition to factor in when you choose your target (BRB page 112 under 'Choose target') where it merely states that a cannon only need to nominate a point within its line of sight and maximum range.

So the cannon needs line of sight from its muzzle to the target. Now, Since the section about Line of Sight isn't the best and GW only use 'a models eye-view' there's confusion about how much the cannon actually can draw it's line of sight to, so there I suggest a house rule, talking it over with your casual opponents or tournament organizers when you don't want to use the most important rule all the time. In my gaming group, we allow cannons a 180 degree Line of sight from the muzzle.

I strongly disagree with giving a warmachine a 360 degree Line of Sight that doesn't have rules that with good wording can support it.

Added order of business:

1 - Choose target within Line of Sight
2 - Pivot towards target
3 - Fire

supported by the Big Red Book (page 10, 109 and 112).

Page 112 of the rule book under Choosing Target(Cannons)
"Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Movement phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapon's line of sight."

From the Warhammer FAQ to correct a mistake

Change “[...]pivot in the Movement phase[...]” to “[...]pivot
in the Shooting phase[...]” in the last sentence of the first
paragraph.

Which changes the sentence into:
"Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Shooting phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapon's line of sight."

Sounds like the pivot occurs before you choose a target.

[Mostream]

Not since that FaQ only adresses the cannon. Your target must still have been chosen before the pivot is made (BRB page 109)

I think that the pivot can be effectively used as a free move ro keep track of your target. If it didn't exist a fast unit could easily move out of the cannons Line of sight.

[Montegue]

Not since that FaQ only adresses the cannon. Your target must still have been chosen before the pivot is made (BRB page 109)

I think that the pivot can be effectively used as a free move ro keep track of your target. If it didn't exist a fast unit could easily move out of the cannons Line of sight.

That's crap. It does not say when I pivot. So I pivot at the beginning of the phase. Now you are in my arch. Now you can be shot. By your logic no unit could ever swift reform to shoot something behind them.

[Texhnolyze]

That's crap. It does not say when I pivot. So I pivot at the beginning of the phase. Now you are in my arch. Now you can be shot. By your logic no unit could ever swift reform to shoot something behind them.

It tells you to pivot to better bring your "chosen" target into LoS So you have already picked a target ^^

And no, swift reform is done in the movement phase, not in the shooting phase, so they can swiftreform all they want because it's done before choosing a target ^^

[Montegue]

Still crap. Its a single model and can pivot without penalty during movement anyway.

[Biggley]

what about if the Iron Blaster - as its such a massive model it can 'see' over hills and shoot the stuff behind the hill - when the IB is infront of the hill - how do you guys deal with this? I mean if its a hill - i should not be able to see what is behind the hill if i am in front of the hill ??

[Mostream]

That's crap. It does not say when I pivot. So I pivot at the beginning of the phase. Now you are in my arch. Now you can be shot. By your logic no unit could ever swift reform to shoot something behind them.

Swift reform a cannon? Only units with a musician can do a swift reform and YES the BRB tells you to pivot before you fire at your chosen target. 'chosen' being past tense means you must have picked a legal target before you do the pivoting.

If you want to pivot freely you can do so in the movement phase, but that counts as moving so prevents your piece from firing in the coming shooting phase due to the move or fire special rule. So yes, thats what i'm saying, no free 360 degree arch of fire.

@ Biggley
The IB can shoot at what it has line of sight to. So it depends on how the hill is modelled. If your opponent or yourself cant see any enemies behind the hill, but you can see a spot on the hill then you/he can shoot at that point. It's not nice, but RAW it's possible.

[Montegue]

Swift reform a cannon? Only units with a musician can do a swift reform and YES the BRB tells you to pivot before you fire at your chosen target. 'chosen' being past tense means you must have picked a legal target before you do the pivoting.

If you want to pivot freely you can do so in the movement phase, but that counts as moving so prevents your piece from firing in the coming shooting phase due to the move or fire special rule. So yes, thats what i'm saying, no free 360 degree arch of fire.

@ Biggley
The IB can shoot at what it has line of sight to. So it depends on how the hill is modelled. If your opponent or yourself cant see any enemies behind the hill, but you can see a spot on the hill then you/he can shoot at that point. It's not nice, but RAW it's possible.

I would definitely walk away from the table if someone insisted on such utter BS. It's absolutely clear that a cannon turns towards it's intended target and then fires. It's not like the cannon is an idiot, or run by idiots. There's a a threat, they point their gun at it, they fire. Are you honestly trying to tell me that the Cannon just gets stupid when the crazed group of chaos marauders suddenly disappears behind an undefined line of sight?

Cannons have no defined front, flank, or rear. I don't know about you, but I prefer to win games with tactics, not rules lawyering.

[Mostream]

I would definitely walk away from the table if someone insisted on such utter BS. It's absolutely clear that a cannon turns towards it's intended target and then fires. It's not like the cannon is an idiot, or run by idiots. There's a a threat, they point their gun at it, they fire. Are you honestly trying to tell me that the Cannon just gets stupid when the crazed group of chaos marauders suddenly disappears behind an undefined line of sight?

Cannons have no defined front, flank, or rear. I don't know about you, but I prefer to win games with tactics, not rules lawyering.

It's well up to you how you behave when someone comes with a different point of view mate so no arguement there. Allow me to merely state that this is a game, and it has certain mechanics in its rules that do not perfectly correspond with what would be logical behaviour to us in real life situations. Sometimes though we have to accept that the rules are not how we want them to be and just adapt.

In this case, it is a mechanic of the rules that makes the cannon have the limit of only being able to choose targets that lie within its line of sight and that the pivot comes after the choosing of the target, not before.

You are incorrect that the cannon doesn't have any defined flanks or rear. The cannon doesn't have a base, but for all intents and purposes, except for combat (BRB page 110), has forward, flank and rear arcs (BRB page 5).

[Mercules]

Montstream, you understand that LoS does not mean "Forward Arc", correct? Cannons have 360Deg LoS and so can pivot to face whatever direction they want before firing per their rules.

[Feefait]

Is the IB move or fire? Because we have been playing them as allowed to move. Originally our oK player was attempting free wheels and turns as it is "a single model" but we got him to concede he at least needs to pay for his wheels. that being said each round he is just pointing it in whatever direction he wants and firing. with that and the magic accuracy the thing has been decimating us. I may have to get a quick read of the book.