4ft x 4ft boards and games worshop not interested in gamers anymore?

[Iron Puritan]

This conversation makes me wonder (again...) how Games Workshop actually views their product now. Their company literature still refers to "the hobby", but so much of what occurs at the B&M level makes me think they now view their product as an ultimately disposable commodity and that inconsistencies in this view are at the root of the negative atmosphere in some GW stores.

Companies that succeed at selling hobby goods work hard at nurturing their customer base because it effectively turns their customers into a renewable resource. Many hobby companies target a range of people within their respective markets, from curious newcomers through to the experienced and heavily invested. The anecdotes about "veterans not buying stuff" are starting to pile up. This begs the question: if a veteran keeps returning to the store but does not spend money, what can be done to get the veteran to part with their money? Their money is as good as the next person and a person who receives bad service is allegedly something like ten times more likely to tell others about a negative experience than they are about a positive experience.

[dtjunkie19]

@ RevEv

I'm sure layout and size of the store play into that somewhat. But at my LGS, customers rarely spend much time watching people playing on the main gaming boards. Instead, they are engaged by staff as they come in, and depending on their interest they will be taken over to a station to paint a model/play on one of the demo boards. At that point they may come around and look at things. But if they are new, they really don't know what they are seeing as they walk by. They just see a bunch of people having fun and laughing and then go back to the staff and start asking more questions/buying/etc.

I can understand the logic of wanting the customer to be able to purchase product immediately instead of web ordering. I just don't think that problem is limited to specialist games. There are plenty of items in all 3 of the main ranges that are not available in store. Customers looking for those purchases also have to web order for what they want.

Now, for the new customer, the little Timmy and his parents, it should be rather easy for a staff member to guide them to starter sets. If Timmy sees those spaceships and says: "Woah, spaceships, I want those!" a good salesperson should acknowledge that he can get those models, but that he should look into these starter sets to learn the hobby (how to build, paint, game, etc.) and then move on. It should be pretty easy to get Timmy excited about anything at that point.

The point is, by failing to support the community of the LGS, I believe GW is shooting themselves in the foot. Smaller gaming boards, denying specialist games, etc. are all a part of that. The less people that are in the store having fun and enjoying themselves, the less appeal the game will have overall. After all, spending hundreds on little plastic models to look at and play with yourself doesn't sound like much fun, but the idea of meeting new people and making new friends and using your models to engage with others...well that's the whole reason I started the hobby.

Sorry, its a bit of a sore point for me. If GW stores aren't there to encourage community and grow the hobby, why are they there at all? As others have shown elsewhere they don't seem to be turning much profit at all.

[RevEv]

Sorry, its a bit of a sore point for me. If GW stores aren't there to encourage community and grow the hobby, why are they there at all? As others have shown elsewhere they don't seem to be turning much profit at all.

I agree with you in some respects but the success of how a store develops and grows the community has to be tempered by having the right mix of veteran gamers and new customers involved in the store. As I have already mentioned I have encountered the very worst type of veteran who makes anyone who does not fit in to their very tight interpretation of what is a gamer uncomfortable and unwelcome. It is these type of veterans who do more harm than good to the customer base of a store since they discourage new customers, many who are funded initially by bank of Mum and Dad. As a parent myself I would not encourage my children to be involved with such people by encouraging their interest in this strange game of 'toy soldiers'. To want to become part of a community one first has to feel welcomed in that community.

Fortunately there are many stores where this is not the case. This afternoon I popped in to my local GW where the atmosphere was superb. All the tables were in use, there were people at the paint station with some superb models, and a real sense of community. It was the same in Cardiff last Saturday when I was visiting there.

I would be interested to visit some of the stores over your side of the pond. Perhaps it is different there? Certainly the culture of FLGS is not really as vibrant over here in my experience as it is apparently where you are.

[Inquisitor Shego]

On a slight side topic, this makes me wonder...

Why is it whenever you order something online they always try and push you into ordering it delivered to the store? Is there a reason for this?

[dtjunkie19]

---

I agree with you in some respects but the success of how a store develops and grows the community has to be tempered by having the right mix of veteran gamers and new customers involved in the store. As I have already mentioned I have encountered the very worst type of veteran who makes anyone who does not fit in to their very tight interpretation of what is a gamer uncomfortable and unwelcome. It is these type of veterans who do more harm than good to the customer base of a store since they discourage new customers, many who are funded initially by bank of Mum and Dad. As a parent myself I would not encourage my children to be involved with such people by encouraging their interest in this strange game of 'toy soldiers'. To want to become part of a community one first has to feel welcomed in that community.

Fortunately there are many stores where this is not the case. This afternoon I popped in to my local GW where the atmosphere was superb. All the tables were in use, there were people at the paint station with some superb models, and a real sense of community. It was the same in Cardiff last Saturday when I was visiting there.

I would be interested to visit some of the stores over your side of the pond. Perhaps it is different there? Certainly the culture of FLGS is not really as vibrant over here in my experience as it is apparently where you are.

Those type of people you mention definitely sound undesirable in a store. I agree they wouldn't be good for new customers nor for the overall community and atmosphere of a store. My experience is that these type of people are not the norm. Then again that may not be true outside my LGS so I cant make a certain judgment on that. My local store (GW Greenwich Village) for the most part, has an absolutely wonderful community and great staff.

I agree a successful GW store should both target new customers to bring them into the hobby as well as cater to regulars in a way that encourages them to stay involved and loyal to the store/hobby (thus leading to more buying). Demo tables and friendly staff work to please new customers. Hobby space, gaming space, and a fun store environment encourage "veterans" or rather repeat attendance from customers. The community that results from having a bunch of the same people coming in and playing/painting/building/etc then in turn encourages new customers to return more and transition into regular patrons themselves.

What upsets me, and I think is the complaint of the OP, is that certain stores are losing that sense of community by discouraging gaming and discouraging regular patrons and solely focusing on quick sales from new customers. For both the players in these areas and for the hobby overall this is poor situation.

@Inquistor Shego

I'm not sure about having it delivered to the store, but I believe if you choose to pay in store it adds to the stores till. I could be mistaken though. Either way, getting you to come in to pick up your order is never a bad thing for the store. You never know, you may end up deciding you need a few extra supplies or make an impulse purchase while you are there.

[RevEv]

---

What upsets me, and I think is the complaint of the OP, is that certain stores are losing that sense of community by discouraging gaming and discouraging regular patrons and solely focusing on quick sales from new customers. For both the players in these areas and for the hobby overall this is poor situation.

I have to agree. The manager defines the store and those who have come at GW management from a purely retail perspective are at risk of losing the heart of the hobby aspect of GW, that is the community of gamers. Having met only one or two like that they soon get the point or are moved on as their sales figures fall.

It seems however that we both have good stores we feel we belong to. Can't complain there! If ever you're over here let me know and, if I can, I'll take you to Salisbury.

[Mastodon]

Its not about trying to get the quick sale and throwing the vets under a bus, its about moving on the types of people that make one tiny purchase a year. If the vets came down to the store and bought something everytime they played a game, open tables would probably still be there. But I can guarantee they dont. Limit the time wasters to only come in on certain days and it just makes everyones lives easier.

The vets that buy stuff have opponents to play, and the whinging and belly aching is kept to a bare minimum.

You might also see a change in attitude from some. They'll start bringing paints + models to build instead of just an army case, which will encourage more of a community than just playing did.

[Omniassiah]

On a slight side topic, this makes me wonder...

Why is it whenever you order something online they always try and push you into ordering it delivered to the store? Is there a reason for this?

Cost... It costs them $6 to send you a single model shipping where as its almost free to send it with the regular shipment to the store. It is also less work on the pickers at the warehouse. not to mention it gets you in the store where you ma buy something else there to help the retail store turn a profit.

[toonboy78]

on the plus side you don't have to wait in all day for the delivery.

[The bearded one]

The reduction in boardsize is such a shame and seems a bit odd. I'd think people playing big large games and having fun is pretty good advertising, and also convinces people to build larger armies with which they can play at the GW. If I could only play 1500pts games in my local GW, I don't think I would ever really have bothered with the 2500pts armies I have now.

[Commissar Merces]

Pretty much the way our store is. 1000 point limit for 40k on most days.

[logan054]

D) I can drink alcohol, eat my own food, order pizza, strippergrams, snort coke (a cola) off the back of a baneblade. I can be messy

Can I come pay at your house

[Kapeg90]

D) I can drink alcohol, eat my own food, order pizza, strippergrams, snort coke (a cola) off the back of a baneblade. I can be messy

Can I come pay at your house

Wargames at Inquisitor Shego's house!

To be honest, I'm a newbie, and what got me interested was seeing the wargames being played, and seeing everyone having a great time at my local Games Workshop! I'd take Inquisitor Shego's advice, however I don't know anyone that plays any GW table-top wargames, or any table top wargames at all for that matter.

[logan054]

Companies that succeed at selling hobby goods work hard at nurturing their customer base because it effectively turns their customers into a renewable resource. Many hobby companies target a range of people within their respective markets, from curious newcomers through to the experienced and heavily invested. The anecdotes about "veterans not buying stuff" are starting to pile up. This begs the question: if a veteran keeps returning to the store but does not spend money, what can be done to get the veteran to part with their money? Their money is as good as the next person and a person who receives bad service is allegedly something like ten times more likely to tell others about a negative experience than they are about a positive experience.

It isn't that hard to get vets to part with money, the problem is GW any many cases are not offering value for money, I think the only reason I have rebought my vampire counts with GW models is because its easier to get games because I go to GW now and play and want to start going to throne of skulls, that really is the only selling point. Back when SoC came out I was happy to buy bucket loads of the new chaos warriors because:

1) they looked so much nicer and
2) they didn't seem that bad for the price

If they had released those models today at the current price I would have just stuck with my old chaos warriors, I'm also in a far better financial situation than I was then, when I finish my vampire counts I am looking at finishing my Dark elves, I don't need a lot and they don't need to be entirely GW legal, just so long as I have a 2k army (which I do) that I can use in GW I'm happy, something I want to buy next for my army is some witch elves, these are my options:

GW
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...d=prod1610034a

Which they price at £20.50 for 5

Raging Heroes
http://www.ragingheroes.com/collecti.../blood-vestals

Which they price at about £16 (or €19,95), rather than releasing new, better plastic models they release the same old dated models in resin and then up the price? You hear many stories about not even being allowed to play in GW, in local store they tried stopping it, thankfully that didn't last very long, aside from "if you want to play here buy here" I can't see what they offering me as a customer, I can't see a single reason for me to buy the GW witch elves over the raging heroes blood vestals, the store I play in doesn't even have big enough boards to play anything above 2k on (even thats a struggle on a 4x4). The throne of skulls tournaments now being only 2k again really doesn't give me a reason to buy anything that takes my army past the 2k mark from them, not with the price tag they are asking for. of course once you find a place to play games above 2k on bigger boards you have no reason to even return to GW (unless you want paints), when that happens what reason do you even have to buy models from GW? They are just pushing the older guys away but not understanding they are the reason why older gamers are not spending!

Wargames at Inquisitor Shego's house!

Wargames, I thought it was just going round his house to steal his food, drink his beer and run off with his stash! guess we could do that after throwing some dice about

[x-esiv-4c]

Keep in mind that GW is a business first and "hang out where you play games" last. The motivator to drive them to this decision was financially based.

[shelfunit.]

Keep in mind that GW is a business first and "hang out where you play games" last. The motivator to drive them to this decision was financially based.

Whilst true, if you can't "hang out" there, why bother spending money there? If the only reason to go into a GW is to purchase things, then surely online discounters/ indies are a far better place to spend in.

[gutsmaka]

my store has always had a 4x4 for intro games and an 8x4 used as two 4x4 or one 6x4 if you book it. it also has a painting table. thats it, becuse the store is so small, and yet we stil have fun with our 2k games on a 4x4. you dont need massive tables for them. we somtimes put a big square ruin in the centre so you need to manuver around it to assault or shoot, which makes it fun. and it is still very possibl to out shoot on that size as the best player uses a BA razor/pred spam. also, latley we have a kill team campaign going, which is played on 4x2 boards, and it still works!

the point of this is you dont need the biggest field for a game, so decreasing from 6x4 to 4x4 isnt a bad thing. youll get used to it if you stick to it, not if you storm of to the nearest club in huff.
(I am a 17 year old customer, not an emploee trying to boost GW numbers, the abovr is just my opinion, not the only one out there)

[Commissar Merces]

Keep in mind that GW is a business first and "hang out where you play games" last. The motivator to drive them to this decision was financially based.

Yeah no those things need to go hand in hand. If I am spending almost 1,000 dollars on an army, I want a nice place to use that investment... while my house is nice I get tired of fighting the same people over and over. Part of the buying products is being into the GW experience... that includes playing games at GW. Take that away I no longer have motivation for this hobby.

Anyways, something I forgot to point out that has really bothered me lately about my current stores' set up. The store is divided into a front and back of the store (much like other stores) difference is, the back of the store is just as big as the front. The store only has room for a quad beginner table (painting, LOTR, Fantasy, and 40k) and one medium sized fantasy and one medium sized 40k table. Normally I wouldn't have an issue with this, but I have been allowed into the back due to me being a great customer I get to use their bathroom (which they said didn't exist until I stumbled upon it, forcing me to go across the street to a different store when I had the urge) and they have a whole space that is going unused.

Instead of moving the merchandise into a separate office (which they have in back), they have lazily put it at the front of the back along with the managers army taking up an ungodly amount of space. The office space (which has a locked door, making it a perfect place to you know store merchandise) is completely empty.

Beyond the office is an even bigger room that is 100% empty. Nothing in it. Why not put another table in here for big events? Last time we had an event was many moons ago (another problem with our store, the manager doesn't like organizing events). Its very frustrating.

[yabbadabba]

Whilst true, if you can't "hang out" there, why bother spending money there? If the only reason to go into a GW is to purchase things, then surely online discounters/ indies are a far better place to spend in.

Convenience

Yeah no those things need to go hand in hand. If I am spending almost 1,000 dollars on an army, I want a nice place to use that investment... while my house is nice I get tired of fighting the same people over and over. Part of the buying products is being into the GW experience... that includes playing games at GW. Take that away I no longer have motivation for this hobby.

That does not bode well for your hobby then. The US culture is very different from the European one, but you have to bear in mind you have invested large amounts of money in something that you admit is useless if GW goes under. That does not sound like a solid investment to me.

-snip-

I can think of a huge number of reasons why things are that way. one thing I am sure of is that the only way you are going to get the right answer is by asking the staff and not the internet.

[shelfunit.]

Convenience

To be honest I always find covenience to be a highly overrated thing. I'll agree for impulse buys, but at the current prices those things are are rarer than a pig flying over a blue moon. For basic modelling products the price of convienience can be 50%+ above the non-branded product, and the only time I can recall buying GW retail prices was when the paints were switched and I stocked up on some foundations that will now last for the forseeable future. Is it such a chore to check your paints once in a while (although if you have to do that the likelyhood is you don't paint much/if at all and probably don't need paints anyway)?