Another potential new Flames of War player :)

[Havock]

Well, the local FLGS has started stocking it, and it looks shiny (and the fluff is really, really good, although some german victories seem a bit on the lucky side ).

Narrowed down my interest in Soviets and the Finnish.

Soviet interest would be the tanks (but with good infantry support), I liked the prospect of the guards thing who don't suffer from Hen & chick, which seems like an immensely aggravating rule.
Anyway, I am rather fond of the SU-85/100 tank destroyers and IS tanks. What would a sample list look like? I have no idea what the scope (ie. modelcount) is this game runs on...

[ltsobel]

Hi as someone a bit further down the FOW path hopefully I can help!

Generaly Russians are a mass army with an 1750 point infantry force of 36odd stands (of 4 men) + 10+ tanks or a normal tank force 20+ tanks plus all those extras. With late war guards you will have to deal with a lot less figures though. A guards (ish) infanty unit (Udarny strelkovy) would be 24 stands of compulsory (2x3 platoon companies plus numerous command stands) infantry but would leave you with over 1000 points for support units, a IS2 force would maybe be 13 IS2s (2 platoons of 5 plus a company command tank) leaving you under 400 points for the support units. The FoW website has aguide about how armies are built using a company chart and this can help you decide/cost, the book you need to look at for army lists is Red Bear (late War Soviets) or Grey Wolf (Late War Finns) or East Front (Mid War both although no IS2s there!)

Finns on the other hand are a very small but elite army (the space marines to russias IG) but have very few tanks and most of them obsolete and as such may be a bit hard to use (although i have seen them paste tank lists in experienced hands), they may be better as an alternate force.

Buying all this stuff you have a few options. Ebay seems the best for much of it (i got an udarny strelkovy box that is up to £48 in the shops for £26 last week ) as you can normally get 10-20% off retail although if you are supporting a local shop it will cast a bit more, buying box sets at full price is generally not cheaper in shops as they are pitched as the same cost as 5 individual blisters but with extras (stowage and decals generally) the real saving is online when the boxes get discounted (cheapest russian boxes seem to be t34 or t34/85 and katuysha boxes). The major cost in FoW though is the tanks and support units (especially if they are not in a handy box set), quite a few companies are doing plastic alternatives- plastic soldier company or zvedza which can be half as much as the Battlefront ones and apparently they scale well (there are a number of blogs that have posted size comparisons).


After all this (if you are still with me :P) you need to think how they will be used. IS2s are well armoured and can kill all german tanks but they only have a rate of fire 1 (as compared to other tanks 2 or even 3) which means if they move they can struggle to hit so you would need other, more rapid fire units to support or act as the flanking units - Su-85s have ROF 2 but are less killy, Su-100s are slightly more powerful than IS2s but again have ROF1. Air power is very good in 3rd so a Sturmovik plane would be useful too. A tank force would obviously much easier to paint especialy with the battlefront spray armour colour!


Also bear in mind that if you do enjoy and want to expand your force beyond 1 army the units you do buy for one russian force can be the support ones for another and allow you to build up in slow time, an infantry unit to support the IS2s can be added to to create a full army buy itself with IS2 support. I started with a Brit infantry company and have been able to expand to make most forces by building up support choices (i also have got some american and russian stuff so my british shermans and m10s can also be used as lend lease and yank ones (although the paint colour is slightly wrong!).

Added support can allow you to make it a bit more interesting too, eg in mid war most forces can take cossack cavalry support and you can take naval infantry rather than standards ones (naval inf no diff in game just dressed in black with sailor hats.) Both look nice and can be a core to a future force although are not cheap (especially the cossacks as a i am finding to my cost!)

Hopefully the other FOW people will agree with me and add their viewpoints, any more questions feel free to ask!

[Omniassiah]

Generally Heavy tanks make a much better supporting units then a full army themselves for new players. You'll be looking at close to a 1000 pts to get you the bare minimum 7 IS-2 in your list (1CC, 2x 3 Combat Platoons) and you'll be wanting to support them with infantry over more tanks as good combined arms lists are really encouraged through the game mechanics. a good choice may be a infantry company that is supported by a unit of IS-2s and Su-85/-100 assualt guns. it would allow you the units that you want wile having the advantage of having infantry which are really good to hold objectives with.

Soviets are easily the largest model count armies in the game with almost twice the vehicles and three times the infantry in some cases. and you'll be looking at around 50 models in an infantry force, 20+ in a tank force, and 15+ in a heavy tank force.

[Havock]

Yeah I read a bit up on the tanks and watched the boot camp stuff. Having only ROF1 tanks seems tactically limiting, as well as most of those guns looking like horrendous overkill on anything less than a tiger
I was initially like "ISU's? Awesome. But they seem very specialised (ie. fairly expensive, unable to hit a moving barn)

The difference in modelcount was clear when I held the boxes: American/german mech platoons with tanks "obviously some metal in here". Soviet infantry battalion "oh shi-"

speaking of, is that this thing?
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0...on%20Sheet.pdf

[ltsobel]

The really heavy stuff does have a place but sometimes its overkill, a lot also depends on who you will be playing, if they are panther crazy it might be good to have a few :P Also if you are on the defensive (less likely in LW but hey) they can be really good if placed well and not required to move.

Yeah its the only infantry box for the russians thats currently done. There was an engineer-sapper one that was discontinued recently although they are still about on ebay. There is still a russian army box about (8th strelkovy corpus) that yu could probably pick up for about £130 (or similar amount in euros :P) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Flames-War...item415fff3a4c that contains pretty much all you need (except the heavy stuff!)

Regarding army lists as was said on another thread there are a number of downloadable lists for alternate armies from the battlefront website, many of which are competiton legal.

[colhodg]

To offer the Finnish alternative - they are a very cheap army to put together - veteran/recce platoons eat up points, stugs from the starter set plus cheap Zvezda plastic t26's...
Just saying! they probably do need a bit more finesse than a wall of IS2 doom however...

Soviet breakthrough list with infiltrating engineers and IS support might be a bit more rounded approach on the russian side if your interest is late war.

[Havock]

That looks interesting, you mean this one: Inzhenerno-Saperniy Batalon (Guards Support) - Engineer-Sapper battallion?

Looking into getting a hang of things, how does this look for an 'initial' 1000 points list?
Got it from easyarmy.com, it is the free soviet infantry company:

1x naked command
2x strelkovy company with 2 platoons each
1x guards heavy tank company (either a small amount of IS-2 or KV85's which are cheaper and leave more room for other stuff).

Also, the Strelkovy infantry box, how much is actually in it? 2 rifle platoons and an SMG platoon + HQ section and some snipers or...? It does not really add up in the army builder thingy.
This thing obviously won't fly if I can't use it everywhere else but my suspicion is that you can find a use for most of that box set contents in most lists. Unless you want to go full armor, which I don't. Combined arms looks more fun and I like the thought of that breakthrough company

[Omniassiah]

Well the Udarny box with a IS-2 box nets you a 1500 pt lists but you'll need Red Bear for the Udarny Strelkovy Batalon list. The other option our of that book is the Peredovoye Otryad list which is Forward Detachment. Its one of the few lists that has an Armored platoon and an Infantry platoon as your required combat companies.

[Havock]

I'll read up on the red bear list then.

What can you make with the Udarny strelkovy box really?

[Omniassiah]

HQ with Sniper and AT-rifle upgrades, 2x 3-squad platoons with one squad made up as SMGs instead of Rifle/MG.

[ltsobel]

The Udarny box does enough for the bare bones compulsory bits of the udarny list with a anti tank rifle extra and snipers. If you shuffle the figures about a bit you can make a full infantry company (3 x 9 base platoons) and you could buy a single blister of strelkovy and run 2 companies of 18 bases as basic infantry. You could also run a motostrelkovy list i think.

With the udarny list you would then only need the optional purchases- Mgs Katuyshas Su-76s etc etc. Regarding your list it seems a lot of point on the Is-2s in a 1000 point game. With ROF 1 you would suffer if you attacked. Likeliehood in a 1k is you opponent couldnt afford panthers either so at worst you are against Pz4s/Stug3s which T34s can handle (although hen and chicks might be in effect then)

Ive seen IS2 best used on attack when used in conjunction with other platoons so higher points limit, against me the two platoons of T34s kept me busy while the IS2s flanked. I killed a lot of the T34s but those IS2s ruined me when in position

[Havock]

Hmm, indeed. So, how about the other options?
T34-85's look like good allround choices, not having read up on the system too much giving them SMG squishies gives them some flexibikity (and makes them rather terrifying on the assault, right?)

Alternatelivy, how do the KV-85 and -KV1-S stack up?
The former seems like a fairly good allround tank, better armored than the T34/85 but way slower and the KV1-S is... Cheap?

And assault guns/tank destroyers? SU-85M's have good stats balanced by their hull mounted guns and are fairly cheap to boot, but at 1k points where the amount of targets will not be very large -and as such the possible angles- they might be a pretty decent choice. ROF2 guns with enough punch to take on most things that people will bring in any number into a 1k game.

Diving into the armybuilder thingy again:
HQ section.
+AT Rifle team (had 40 pts to spare, just not enough for SMG escorts or anything else for that matter)
+Sapper platoon

2x Strelkovy company @ 2 platoons each.

1x5 SU85M

[ltsobel]

I had a look at the KV1-Ss they seem a great tank mid war and useable late, one of my gaming colleages swears by KV-85s.

My worry with su-85s in a 1k game is lack of turret and no MGs which would make them a pit pointless against anything except tanks, Tank ridrs i think can be great but can die really easy as anything firing at the tanks only gives them a 5+ save rather than the normal inf one.

I had a quick go on easyarmy(all my own opinion obviously i am no Zhukov!)

HQ section.
2x Strelkovy company @ 2 platoons each.
1 plt MG coy (3 guns)
1 plt mortar coy (3 guns) + obs
1 T34 plt - 3 t34 w cupola, 2 t34/85 w cupola (loadsa MGs on these)

1 k

I think this list is fairly flexible. I would mount one inf coy on tanks as riders if poss and use smoke from the mortars to cover (need to check tank riding and if the mortars can smoke). Prob for this though is smaller size of platoons and physically buying the extra stuff might cost a bit more.

[Havock]

I read this after I went ahead with and bought the SU's

At a later date I will probably go for a hammer & anvil approach: the SU-85M's* get in a good position for mutual support for the infantry while I take some IS2's or T34/85's on a stroll arround the countryside to hit the enemy where it hurts.

Given some cover etc I suppose the SU's FA 9 could hold out against a little not-so-tender love and care from my opponent, especially when I have those IS-2's/mediums threatening his flanks. If my enemy has few tanks I can simply use the SU's as bait, although 5 might be a bit expensive for that.

I could drop one SU and the AT rifles, add SMG escorts to the tankies (so they can at least assault infantry?) and add a small mortar group with spotters, adds up to 1000 pts exactly.

[Omniassiah]

I wouldn't bother with the SMG escorts, I would go with the mortars though. basically your Assault guns would go tank hunting while your infantry advances as necessary. Mortars would help pin before assaults.

[Havock]

Well, got the strelkovy box.

That's a loooooot of little army men :')

[arakis10191]

Good to see another Finn army being considered. here is what I started with
Unlimited Pts - Finnish Jalkaväkikompannia List - Finns 600 pts

1 Company HQ, 100 pts
2 SMG team
1 Panssari Section
2 Lahti anti-tank rifle

1 Jalkaväki Platoon, 130 pts
1 HQ Section
1 Close-defence SMG team
2 Jalkaväki Squad
2 Rifle/MG team

1 Jalkaväki Platoon, 130 pts
1 HQ Section
1 Close-defence SMG team
2 Jalkaväki Squad
2 Rifle/MG team

1 Anti-tank Platoon, 60 pts
1 HQ Section
1 SMG team
2 Anti-tank Section
1 37 PstK/37 (3.7cm PaK36) gun (Gun shield)
1 Firing Stielgranate

1 Machine-gun Platoon, 85 pts
1 HQ Section
1 SMG team
1 Machine-gun Section
2 Maxim HMG

1 Mortar Platoon, 75 pts
1 HQ Section
1 SMG team
1 Observer Rifle team
2 Mortar Section
1 Tampella M/35 81mm mortar (Smoke Bombardment)

Validation Report:
Briefing: Eastern Front
List satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
CHQ: 1 (1 - 0)
Combat: 2 (2 - 3)
Weapons: 2 (0 - 4)
Support: 1 (0 - 8)
Air Support: 0 (0 - 1)

Total List Cost: 580

this is going to cost around £60 RRP if you use every model in each blister. but you can use about 5 diff antitank guns and get finnish artillery group blister

[Havock]

Well I took the soviet route at first.

If/when a secnd army comes, it will be the Finnish.

[Cleal Baros]

..........

[Havock]

Left you speechless?