Horde formation I have no hate for. I have hate for the thought process that one must create an army list that is one mega blob and cram all of their characters into it (where the army is one horde and a couple support machines next to it) I hate this because it destroys why I play this game in the first place... as an army game with multiple units.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
Like I said, I haven't played in these rules yet, so just wondered. I used to play dogs of war, so I have loads of cheep units running around. The horde is new to me but people I have spoken too said I needed one, so thought I'd ask. May sound daft, but what is an " über horde" you talk off?
IMHO, hordes are just a way to play. It mostly depends on the price of unit and their efficiency, as you get only 1 support attack with infantry. But I do not field them (or rarely) because I prefer mobility upon sheer brutality (as I am a poor general, I always need to react to my mistakes).
Why does nothing ever turn out like it should ?
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It's normally called a Deathstar. A large Horde of hard to kill troops and multiple characters. It's not the same as a normal Horde, it doesn't even have to be in Horde formation.
Some Deathstars work better 5 wide with a fornt row entirely made up of characters.
Back to Horde formation: Some unit just work better in Horde. Grave Guard are a good example. They have 1 attack per model so 5 wide they get 10 attacks. 10 wide they get 30 (21 against 5 wide opponents). That's a huge difference for a unit that hits on 3's with S6. They also don't care about steadfast because they are undead and never break.
Other unit don't work well in Horde formation: Troops with 1 S3 attack for example. It often doesn't matter if you have 10 or 21 or 30 attacks.
When you are hitting on 4's and wounding on 5's, Horde formation isn't worth giving up ranks for rank bonus and more important steadfast.
A good player will have the right units in the right formation at the right time.
Sorry my bad. There are two "hordes".
The first is horde formation. This is discussed above.
The second is the deathstar. Some people call these hordes as well. The death star is a large blob of models packed in with characters. It may or may not be in horde formation. They don't have to be hard to kill models. They can be 100-200 skaven slaves. They are taken for two reasons:
1) to take advantage of steadfast all game
2) to deny victory points with the all or nothing VP system in 8th (you either kill them all and get their points or get no points at all)
It becomes a game of kill the deathstar, win the game, or else lose the game.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
Really? Wouldn't an uber deaths tar horde be boring to use? Plus if I used one I'd feel I cheated for the win. I don't mean to offend anyone who may use one it is just my gut feeling.
Yes yes it is for some people very boring to have to play against.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
The definitions I like are:
Horde - any unit 10-wide or wider.
Deathstar - very expensive elite unit, typically with multiple characters
Hordestar - a deathstar big enough to be deployed as a horde.
I don't immediately think "deathstar" when I hear "horde." There's not much reason not to horde up with undead, for example, but I'd not consider a unit of skeletons or zombies particularly deathstar, they just don't have the incentive from Steadfast to form deep. Not to say they can't be, put five wraiths in a unit of skeletons and you have a decent deathstar.
I don't find that terrain or scenarios really bother deathstars. Any deathstar worth its salt will be stubborn, making woods and rivers less fearsome. Blood And Glory can be a weakness - but often, even if all their Fortitude is in the deathstar, that can just force you to engage the deathstar to win anyway.
... and then I won.
Watchtower might be a bit of a problem if the only unit you have is your fat deathstar though.
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Painting log, last pictures: March, 7th, 2013 -> Goblin BSB
Urgat's Armory v0.3 [Blood in the Badlands Siege options]
Hmmm ... solid points all around ...
I'll just add this : with my Night Goblins, at 2K points, I can have my huge unit of 110+ gobboes with all bells and whistles, plus Warboss, BSB and 5~6 Big Bosses in it, PLUS 1 Great Shaman and 2 Shamans, PLUS 2~3 units of 20 NGs with Shortbows (and all the kit), PLUS 2 Manglers, PLUS a Horded Squig Herd ...
By strict definition, my huge block is a "HordeStar" ... in practice, they are lowly gobboes with WS2, S3, T3 and no save worth bothering about, AND I have several support units (or simply smashing things like the Manglers) alongside them ...
That's an extreme example, of course, but I do think that the NGs, and to a lesser extent other gobboes too, are meant to be played like that ...
Oh, and the visual effect of such an army is great, I can easily fill up the length of the table when deploying for a "standard" scenario, I even have problems getting every thing in line with the Battle for the Pass scenario
Meh, Watchtower is heavily unbalanced anyway, but typically, a fat deathstar does just fine at Watchtower since they can send in multiple wood-chipper characters and just murder their way through any defenders. Better at re-taking a watchtower than a MSU build!Originally Posted by Urgat
... and then I won.
Haing a horde or two is a very good idea and will make winning considerably easier.
I disagree. A deathstar is taken for points denial and sheer killing power, never for steadfast. 200 Slaves are not even close to a deathstar and killing them will not win you the game (unless we're talking about a 500 point game).
You're right. I was educated by the higher powers yesterday that one just uses stubborn troops or a crown of command.
I lump all things huge like that as "death star" though that's just my own classification.
It is the easiest way to win, but because it destroys aesthetics for me I can't stand it; I wish they'd put unit caps up. It seems to me to be more gaming the system than it is a game of fantasy battles at that point but that's just my opinion.
Last edited by IcedCrow; 12-06-2012 at 12:46.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
If they added a rule that rear and flank charges removed steadfast it would reduce the amount of horded cheap units you see on the table.
Being a WE player there is nothing I hate more than large monsters and hordes of units especially death start units supported, we just don't have the ability to beat them without throwing a disproportional amount of points at them... then if you have flaming attacks well it was over before it started.
Last edited by Doommasters; 13-06-2012 at 01:16.
I love Death Stars with tons of characters in them. The Sword of Anti-Heroes is the best addition to 8th.
Vampire Lords with 10 attacks at strength 10 and red fury re-rolls to hit and wound are hilarious.
Thousand Sons/Daemons of Tzeentch/Vampire Counts
There is a way through the coming darkness. But to find it we must change.
We must change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither god nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
Good for you not many armies have combat heroes even close to Vampire lordsYour Vampire lord can kill a whole unit of Gladeguard on his own in one round of combat.
Incidently, the aesthetic of a massive shambling horde of Zombies and Skeletons is so perfectly fitting for the Vampire Counts.
Thousand Sons/Daemons of Tzeentch/Vampire Counts
There is a way through the coming darkness. But to find it we must change.
We must change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither god nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
"Ah...I see you brought your chosenstar list today."
"Yeah baby! What are we playing?"
"Roll for it."
"Alright...4. What's 4?"
"Blood and Glory"
"%^*#".
Really? Funny, I see it going like this.
"Ah...I see you brought your chosenstar list today."
"Yeah baby! What are we playing?"
"Roll for it."
"Alright...4. What's 4?"
"Blood and Glory"
"Okay, I put my General and BSB in the chosenstar. They all have 3+ wards. Even if you wipe the rest of my army out you can't win unless you engage the Chosenstar."
Nevermind the chosenstar list often has a couple of hard-to-get cheap banners to hide in a corner just in case you do kill all supporting mainline units with banners and pop the BSB or general by some freak luck.
I think Death and Glory is a good scenario (especially if it is just a hefty VP bonus, rather than sudden death), but it does not really discourage deathstars all that much.
... and then I won.
That can be expressed far more economically: It would remove cheap units from the table.
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