Blood of Aenarion Question

[Sappysid101]

I won't spoiler this as I don't think it's required, but after reading the book (which I really enjoyed) a question came up for me. It's said that the High Elves are in decline due to not having enough children etc. But throughout the book all Tyrion seems to be thinking about along side of warfare is sex. Is it just me or are High Elves not as prudish as the army book and many a thread / discussion makes out?

- Sid

[Ultimate Life Form]

Well, it's hardly at all unheard of for a Warhammer novel to be in direct contradiction to every other piece of background established over the course of 25 years.

Then again, Tyrion can hardly be thought of as the classic example of a standard High Elf. On a side note, aside from thinking about sex, did he actually get anywhere or was there too much warfare going on? Then again some people say it's the same thing.

I think the true reason High Elves are in decline is not because they don't want to procreate; it's more because it's taking them forever (most other races are far more short-lived and thus need to procreate at a much faster rate) and the constant warfare eats up a good chunk of their population. Also, seeing how long-lived they are, I suspect their fertility may naturally not be very high in order to avoid overpopulation. Last, seeing how they live in a very rigid and ceremonial estates-based culture, several severe hurdles may be in place before a High Elf may even think about having children, much unlike Dark Elves who don't mind throwing orgies on a regular basis (Morathi wasn't the head of the Cult of Pleasures for nothing).

All being said, I think it's not because High Elves don't procreate but rather because everyone else procreates in a far more virulent and faster manner. Or, to put it in simple terms, they're already severely outnumbered and birth statistics spell further doom.

[Arnizipal]

High Elves have been described as have a pretty loose sexual moral in various novels and pieces of background (Teclis wakes up with two courtesans in his bed at the start of Giantslayer for example).

ULF makes some good points on Elven birth rates. I'd like to add a comparison to the real world Western nations.
Despite the fact that we have ideal living conditions and economic wealth, our population is aging and birth rates are in decline.
People actively choose to have less children (or no children at all). I think this is a fair comparison to High Elf society.

[Urgat]

High Elves have been described as have a pretty loose sexual moral in various novels and pieces of background (Teclis wakes up with two courtesans in his bed at the start of Giantslayer for example).

Yeah, I don't remember any piece of fluff actually hinting at HE being prudes. We're talking about a society where a cult of Slaanesh existed more or less openly, and which spawned one of the most deviant people in about no time at all. I think that, if anything, HE are anything but prudes. I can easily picture them living like the Romans.

Arnizipal: I'll disagree that we have ideal economic wealth for high birthrates. I think it's quite the contrary in fact, the way we live now pretty much prevents us from having too many children. I don't know about you, but I'm already pushing back having kids for as long as my better half will suffer, and I'm kindda worried about how I'd fare if I had to support two or three kids in my current condition.

[Arnizipal]

Arnizipal: I'll disagree that we have ideal economic wealth for high birthrates.

I think it's actually the other way around. The West is richer than the average nation in Europe or Asia because we choose to have fewer children.
That way we get to spend more of our resources on ourselves, providing us with a more comfortable life.

Could be the same for High Elves (provided they have reliable birth control).
To keep a population stable each couple needs to have at least two children, but I think this isn't the case for most Elves.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Also worth mentioning is that biologists generally distinguish 2 fundamentally different procreation strategies:

1. Create as much offspring as possible during your lifetime with minimal effort and care and just hope some will pull through (for example most rodents like mice, rats, but also fish, insects and other such things that simply lay eggs like mad and then scram).
Warhammer examples of this strategy would be Skaven, Greenskins and, to an extent, Lizardmen.

2. Give birth to only very few individuals but devote great care and many ressources to their upbringing, thereby diligently preparing them for the difficulties they will face and such giving them a very good chance to reach adulthood (like for example birds, apes, cats, dogs and so on).
Warhammer examples of this strategy would be of course Humans, Ogres and Dwarves.

Elves also fall into the latter category, and in a very extreme way. Considering it takes several centuries for an Elf to actually finish his educational curriculum in the ways of arts, magic, warfare and the finer points of court intrigue, one can easily imagine the pressure this puts on the weeping parent's purse. And we're talking only one here. The nobility may not have much of a problem here, but they're also an absolute minority. However if you're a lowly farmer in your prime and your wife just gave birth to your 400th child (twins this time!) you know you've run into some serious trouble. I wouldn't find it unreasonable if they restrict themselves to very few children, very late, much like we do. Only in their case it means they don't have 40 years of occasions to die without procreating but 400 years.

[reth]

The fact that Tyrion is obsessed with sex means that he is a quite primitive guy, not that the whole high elves race is very sexually active.

[Beastlord]

The fact that Tyrion is obsessed with sex means that he is a quite primitive guy, not that the whole high elves race is very sexually active.

How does that make him primitive?
I thought that the declining population was due not to prudishness but to low fertility.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Low fertility and low birthrates doesn't have to be the same thing. High Elves might have low birthrates for lots of other reasons than because they are infertile.

[reth]

How does that make him primitive?
I thought that the declining population was due not to prudishness but to low fertility.

Because it seems that he just follow his instincs when he sees a beautiful girl, as leats it is what is described in the book.

[Urgat]

What, does he rape them? because if he just hits on them, that's what single (or unfaithful) men do usually. Got nothing to do with being primitive or not, it's more a matter of testosterone

[Craze_b0i]

I think it's actually the other way around. The West is richer than the average nation in Europe or Asia because we choose to have fewer children.
That way we get to spend more of our resources on ourselves, providing us with a more comfortable life.

Could be the same for High Elves (provided they have reliable birth control).
To keep a population stable each couple needs to have at least two children, but I think this isn't the case for most Elves.

The European (native) population decline in certain countries is a relatively recent thing only in the last few decades. Our standard of living is made easier by the fact we have technology and so forth. High Elf society is much less advanced somewhere between classical civilisation and medieval. Therefore among other things still mostly agrarian. The typical elf farmer or herdsman, and even the urban borgeoise would still need to make sure they produce plenty of children to support themselves as they grew old.

The only explanation that makes sense for me is that elves have a low fertility rate.

[Arnizipal]

The European (native) population decline in certain countries is a relatively recent thing only in the last few decades. Our standard of living is made easier by the fact we have technology and so forth. High Elf society is much less advanced somewhere between classical civilisation and medieval. Therefore among other things still mostly agrarian. The typical elf farmer or herdsman, and even the urban borgeoise would still need to make sure they produce plenty of children to support themselves as they grew old.

The only explanation that makes sense for me is that elves have a low fertility rate.

The High Elves are among the most advanced races of the Warhammer World.
Despite their lack of technology, they have access to relatively safe yet powerful magic to help them in everyday life (IIRC there are desciptions of magically tended fields and things like that).

[Urgat]

In W:AR, they got magic brooms to do the cleaning for them. They strike me as a lazy bunch really

[Craze_b0i]

The High Elves are among the most advanced races of the Warhammer World.
Despite their lack of technology, they have access to relatively safe yet powerful magic to help them in everyday life (IIRC there are desciptions of magically tended fields and things like that).

Even if that is so I would be surprised if they felt no racial or patriotic imperative to keep the race alive. In the short term this would be absolutely essential as they need enough soldiers to fight the DE. Having identified themselves as a dying race you would think they would seek to address it.

[Arnizipal]

Even if that is so I would be surprised if they felt no racial or patriotic imperative to keep the race alive. In the short term this would be absolutely essential as they need enough soldiers to fight the DE. Having identified themselves as a dying race you would think they would seek to address it.

Do we do something about the declining population in Europe, the US and Japan?
We know there are too many pensioners and not enough births, yet there aren't any serious measures taken to encourage couples to have more children.

[woodster17]

Woah this thread is getting jacked by demographic talk. Geography BA ftw! :P In other news, I agree with the fertility argument. High Elves are pretty much as advanced as you can be in the Warhammer World. Magic trumps industrial advancement for me, Ulthuan is infused with the stuff. Since the HE are so adept at manipulating it, they can use magic to achieve any end. They presumably don't need much manual labour with such skills. This would lead to malaise IMO which is part of the explanation given in the TOL series for the Sundering and Slaanesh worship. HE's just strike me as a bored race, they've achieved everything in the world they can do and thus have little drive to return to the 'days of old'.

[The bearded one]

The high elf low birth rate has never really been explained very well. At least for dwarfs there's a reasonable explanation for their declining population (aside from a perpetual state of war), as only one in 3 (IIRC, could be 1 in 10, maybe brought down to 1 in 3 from warcasualties) dwarfs is female.

[Spider]

I have one other motive for low birth rate of the HE...a realisitic outlook of the world.

We know the Warhammer world is doomed (it's the underlying theme of just about everything), but I suspect that the HE's are maybe the only race that understand that. Assuming this is true, what would be their motive for bringing a new generation into the world?

They are probably advanced enough to be one of the only races with the ability to control their birthrates with some degree of accuracy (does latex exist in Ulthuan?) and the knowledge that world may truly end in chaotic horridness in their actual lifetimes. Why would anybody bring a child into that scenario?

All of other races either have no real control over population growth (lizzys and Dwarves and orcs), no worries over population growth (skaven, Beasts, orcs) or simple ignorance of the "big picture" (humans, ogres).

Elves of all kinds are simply bizarre when trying to rationalize fluff=population sizes.

[stormblade]

Yes, only the guys who live apart from the rest of the world in a magical land with self-plowing fields and dream bearing wine have a realistic outlook of the world.