Thunderfire Cannon vs. Vindicator

[Schismotive]

The reason I like vindicators is because how bad predators are; a dakka pred is cheap, and for that it really doesn't do much more than fire its little pea shooter, and probably die; its armors terrible... anyway the vindicator isn't so great either but it's better, I feel. BA get fast ones, and us templars get machine spirit vindicators, but even without those i like them. As far as thunderfire cannons, I don't like them very much, but I feel like If I played codex marines, I'd take them any day over a predator...

but I'm a black templar, so I hate everything...

[Dazza612]

2/3 of games are objective, and even in KP's, I ignore Vindicators, and if i do go after them.. its after i've moved as close as i can to them and pop smoke..

they are 115/125 pts better spent elsewhere, beefing up an army. they are in fact a decent sized scout squad waiting to happen.. I cannot reiterate enough, how useful those blighters are. Harder to kill and more useful than a glorified Razorback, longer range and more reliable.

if i had to choose between the TFC and the Vindi.. the TFC would win out... sure a glance would kill it but i get a techmarine as a free FoC when it dies.

and frankly the only one worth taking is the ba one, but 145 is a waste of points in that codex, when a lasplas laden with assault marines is only 10pts more.. and you have a scoring vehicle that hurts more and at longer range.


Vindicators are useful against terminator heavy lists. but you will be lucky to get a shot off with them before they are destroyed

The first two paragraphs are exactly what I was trying to say earlier I just didn't vocalise it as eloquently. The vindicator has a few major weaknesses and in addition there are better things you can take for 125 points in a vanilla army and much much better options in a blood angels army!!

[Dazza612]

The reason I like vindicators is because how bad predators are; a dakka pred is cheap, and for that it really doesn't do much more than fire its little pea shooter, and probably die; its armors terrible... anyway the vindicator isn't so great either but it's better, I feel. BA get fast ones, and us templars get machine spirit vindicators, but even without those i like them. As far as thunderfire cannons, I don't like them very much, but I feel like If I played codex marines, I'd take them any day over a predator...

but I'm a black templar, so I hate everything...

Why are predators so bad?

[Bartali]

They're not. AC/HB Preds are 85pts for 8 shots and AV13, what's not to love ?

[Kroot Lord]

I was really close in including a Thunderfire Cannon in my IF army, but in the end opted for a Scout Biker squad with grenade launchers instead because of the similar function they perform. The bikers manage to do almost anything the Thunderfire Cannon can do: more blast templates to make up for a weaker strength, bikes and scout moves for the cannon's long range. Durability is increased, albeit four T3(4) models aren't the toughest to kill. Moreover, the bikers have the ability to provide a rather effective anti-tank asset with their grenade launchers, along with the option for a combi-melta (at BS4).

Whilst it's difficult to properly compare them despite the same/similar point costs, the Scout Bikers are a valid substitute for the Thunderfire Cannon in the sense that they easily provide the same amount (and sort) of firepower, at the expense of the special effects associated with the Thunderfire Cannon rounds, but with infinitely more mobility and a considerable amount of adaptability to whatever situation comes at hand.

[Inevitable]

My Tyranids vs'd a Space Marine army this weekend and he had a Vindicator. The setup was Spear-head. Terrain was only 25% on the table. He used all of his forces to basically surround the vindicator, giving it a narrow arc of shooting. Even with a 4+ Cover save and the narrow arc of shooting he still managed to accumulate over 500 points of damage throughout the 6 turns the game lasted. Ignoring it proved fruitless as it did its damage. Given that I had to assault his units on objectives (which he knew) he purposely set up his vindicator in order to capitalize on destroying the objective (and me). We each made some bad moves early game and it cost us mobility on both ends. By the time I had cleared the important units, I only had half my Ravener squad left to take out his Vindicator (and failed miserably). It ended in a bloody massive finale with his command squad & Captain in melee with the swarmlord. Both sides destroyed each other. He held 2 objectives, I held 1. The vindicator was easily MVP. The critical shot was templating my Tyranid prime & Venomthrope and me failing the 4+ cover save.

So, what have we learned? A vindicator forcing a 50% chance to lose something precious or not, can be a worthwhile investment if you are willing to sacrifice other things to capitalize on it. He also seized the initiative, thus letting him get a turn 1 Prime & Venomthrope (100+55 points) dead in 1 lucky shot. He deployed in the front, landraider to his left, Razorback to his right, Jumptroops to the Vindicator's rear.

We've probably learned alot here: 1) I'm unlucky 2) He's good with a Vindicator 3) He properly used synergy to capitalize on his vindicator the entire game (it never got destroyed) 4) Spear-head Favored shooting over assault in this case. 5) I suck at Warhammer 40k.

[Elios Harg]

I was really close in including a Thunderfire Cannon in my IF army, but in the end opted for a Scout Biker squad with grenade launchers instead because of the similar function they perform. The bikers manage to do almost anything the Thunderfire Cannon can do: more blast templates to make up for a weaker strength, bikes and scout moves for the cannon's long range. Durability is increased, albeit four T3(4) models aren't the toughest to kill. Moreover, the bikers have the ability to provide a rather effective anti-tank asset with their grenade launchers, along with the option for a combi-melta (at BS4).

Whilst it's difficult to properly compare them despite the same/similar point costs, the Scout Bikers are a valid substitute for the Thunderfire Cannon in the sense that they easily provide the same amount (and sort) of firepower, at the expense of the special effects associated with the Thunderfire Cannon rounds, but with infinitely more mobility and a considerable amount of adaptability to whatever situation comes at hand.

3x S6 single shots is significantly less firepower than 4x S6 blasts... The thunderfire is by no means lacking in firepower, it's just fragile.

[Dazza612]

My Tyranids vs'd a Space Marine army this weekend and he had a Vindicator. The setup was Spear-head. Terrain was only 25% on the table. He used all of his forces to basically surround the vindicator, giving it a narrow arc of shooting. Even with a 4+ Cover save and the narrow arc of shooting he still managed to accumulate over 500 points of damage throughout the 6 turns the game lasted. Ignoring it proved fruitless as it did its damage. Given that I had to assault his units on objectives (which he knew) he purposely set up his vindicator in order to capitalize on destroying the objective (and me). We each made some bad moves early game and it cost us mobility on both ends. By the time I had cleared the important units, I only had half my Ravener squad left to take out his Vindicator (and failed miserably). It ended in a bloody massive finale with his command squad & Captain in melee with the swarmlord. Both sides destroyed each other. He held 2 objectives, I held 1. The vindicator was easily MVP. The critical shot was templating my Tyranid prime & Venomthrope and me failing the 4+ cover save.

So, what have we learned? A vindicator forcing a 50% chance to lose something precious or not, can be a worthwhile investment if you are willing to sacrifice other things to capitalize on it. He also seized the initiative, thus letting him get a turn 1 Prime & Venomthrope (100+55 points) dead in 1 lucky shot. He deployed in the front, landraider to his left, Razorback to his right, Jumptroops to the Vindicator's rear.

We've probably learned alot here: 1) I'm unlucky 2) He's good with a Vindicator 3) He properly used synergy to capitalize on his vindicator the entire game (it never got destroyed) 4) Spear-head Favored shooting over assault in this case. 5) I suck at Warhammer 40k.

Well a lot depends on what you had in your army and how you played. For instance did you have multiple monstrous creatures, a T-fex or 9 Hive Guard?

[Dazza612]

They're not. AC/HB Preds are 85pts for 8 shots and AV13, what's not to love ?

Hmmm why would you love something which has 3 guns where one one of them is for taking out light tanks and the other 2 is for infantry but do a crappy job of that? 6 HB shots will on avg at absolute best kill 1 marine and considering most decent armies are MEQ what's he point? You have paid 85 points for a tank and assuming you shoot everything at infantry will kill a marine a turn which is 5 marines per game and you have used up one of your HS slots as well.