Impact Hits

[Vipoid]

Does anyone else find it a little strange that there's no real defence against impact hits? (other than not being charged, obviously)

It just seems that, for example, spears should provide some protection - either preventing the impact hits (by forcing the enemy to slow), or inflicting damage on the charging unit.

Anyone else thing like this, or am I just being silly?

[Sexiest_hero]

A fantasy chariot will plow right through a spear hedge without much effort. Lots of chariot fluff has them crashing through walls!

[The bearded one]

"ye better watch out, ye monstrous ironcast daemonmetal chariot, for I have a pointy stick! ha-HA!"

* crash, blood splatters *

[Vipoid]

A fantasy chariot will plow right through a spear hedge without much effort. Lots of chariot fluff has them crashing through walls!

Fair enough, I suppose.

I assume ogres are the same? Despite wearing negligible armour, when they run straight into a wall of spears, its the spearmen who take damage.

[IcedCrow]

An impact hit is just that. It represents a force being thrown against you. Your pointy stick does not negate the force being thrown against you. Realistically plowing into a spear wall should allow a kind of impact hit in return which many games represent with their spears and pikes to reinforce the defensive nature of what they are trying to represent.

The game I am writing for the PC allows spears and pikes to strike first against a charging enemy to their front and cavalry also does impact hits from the horses plowing into you.

[Morkash]

The Ogres' gutplates are mainly for this: To protect the most important part of their body: Their gut. Against pointy spears for example.

The inofficial Dogs of War army book does include rules for pike causing hits against charging cavalry as far as I know. The old 6th edition pike rules had ASF (and +1S against cavalry) when charged IIRC. Spears are too short for this sort of defense, I'd say, although I'm no warfare expert of course. Maybe the historical games handle this different, but I think spears are too short to be used effectively against charging opponents: Either stakes hammered into the ground or pikes were used for these situations.

[NitrosOkay]

Spears were effective, but not nearly as effective as a wall of pikes. Horses would refuse to charge into a pike wall.

[IcedCrow]

Spears worked just like pikes. It's just that pikes were longer, had a greater effective threat range, and were great at stopping cavalry in their tracks.

A spear hedge was something no infantry unit wanted to charge into.

The old Dogs of War rulebook from 5th edition indeed has pikes. They strike first when charged and are +1S against cavalry and fought in four ranks. I wish they'd bring those rules back.

[boli]

Imagine if you were dressed in full plate, had the best shield money could buy and a magical sword. Then imagine crossing the street and getting hit by a car - sure the people in the car could come off badly as well and the car (chariot) but you are still going to hurt... a LOT.

Impact hits on the whole are pretty neglible in 8th edition unfortunally, perviously without step-up and much smaller units (20-25 or even smaller!) D3+2 impact hits really made a mark... but even against elite formations (esp hordes) loosing 2 or 3 guys is pretty much nothing.

Spears should get a strength bonus if charged reguardless of the unit type tbh - it is no accident that he humble spear (later the pike and bayonette) have been so prevalent on battlefields throughout history.

[theunwantedbeing]

It just seems that, for example, spears should provide some protection - either preventing the impact hits (by forcing the enemy to slow), or inflicting damage on the charging unit.

A spear is as much use against a chariot charge as a mobile phone is in helping you not die from a car accident.

Warhammer doesn't have enough impact hits if you ask me.
Dragons and other large monsters should be perfectly happy to do exactly what a chariot does (and they have a far greater mass to do it with!)...similarly ogres get a charge rule which has nothing to do with wearing their army specific gut plate (which it should do, then it would make sense for them and only them to be allowed to deal impact hits).

Spears don't help you in not getting squished by a chariot, however they do allow the guys an extra rank away to poke the rider with a stick in protest of his poor driving.
It doesn't matter if those spears killed the rider (or the horses) when they reached the tips of those spears...the chariot is still moving at a high speed and will carry on through you regardless.

[Vipoid]

Spears don't help you in not getting squished by a chariot, however they do allow the guys an extra rank away to poke the rider with a stick in protest of his poor driving.
It doesn't matter if those spears killed the rider (or the horses) when they reached the tips of those spears...the chariot is still moving at a high speed and will carry on through you regardless.

Well, actually it does (or should).

Yes, if you drive your chariot at full speed into rank upon rank of spearmen, they won't do much to slow your momentum, and you'll still plough through them. However, if your horses are then impailed by several spear shafts, your chariot won't be doing much else.

Since horses (or equivilent fantasy animals) are part of a chariot (some might argue a rather integral one), if they take damage by ploughing into spears, it seems that this could be represented by thr chariot taking damage, as well as the spearmen.

[theunwantedbeing]

Yes, if you drive your chariot at full speed into rank upon rank of spearmen, they won't do much to slow your momentum, and you'll still plough through them. However, if your horses are then impailed by several spear shafts, your chariot won't be doing much else.

It won't stop you taking the exact same damage as if you had just stood there and taken the hit.
Steadfast nicely represents how chariots really work.

They run into the enemy and then, that's it....they just get swarmed and die.

The warhammer spear is not good for impaling anything, it's just a longer sword you can use to poke people from a bit further away.

[Vipoid]

It won't stop you taking the exact same damage as if you had just stood there and taken the hit.

I'm not really sure what you mean here.

[Urgat]

Mmh, chariots really don't work like that. They avoided combat and were shooting platforms

[Vipoid]

Spears worked just like pikes.

You'd hope so, since pikes *are* spears.

[Jind_Singh]

Spears has always been a tricky one - as they are they are mediocre (Unless your a Sarus Warrior!) or they would be too good!

I think the chariort rules work fine as they are - they rush in and do damage...and then die as the defenders cut out the mounts, the riders, and generally get chomped!!!

[Sexiest_hero]

Don't forget that Chariots in fantasy are pulled by almost anything but horses. Razorgors, Warboars strong enough to trample a warboss. Raptors, undead horses, lions, giant wolves, and demonic steeds. Think of them as less normal chariot and more tank. They are built to charge into the toughest things the warhammer world can toss at it. A pointy stick is no threat.

[Spedgal]

Mmh, chariots really don't work like that. They avoided combat and were shooting platforms

In Egypt and Roman uses, this is true. However, classical Indian chariots were used more like ultra-heavy cavalry and frequently directed against ranked infantry

[Urgat]

Yeah but those were enormous things, not the ones we have in Warhammer. Not that I wouldn't just love to see a Warhammer chariot pulled by six horses But really, the closest we have to them are stegadons and sphynxes, not the chariots we have.
But yeah damn would that be awesome. I've always wanted to have an enormous wolf chariot pulled by six wolves, with a weapon platform totting a spear chukka and a horde of hungry goblins. Painted red.

[The bearded one]

Yeah but those were enormous things, not the ones we have in Warhammer. Not that I wouldn't just love to see a Warhammer chariot pulled by six horses But really, the closest we have to them are stegadons and sphynxes, not the chariots we have.

settra's chariot has 4 horses

But yeah damn would that be awesome. I've always wanted to have an enormous wolf chariot pulled by six wolves, with a weapon platform totting a spear chukka and a horde of hungry goblins. Painted red.

With the release of tomb kings I was actually half expecting a super chariot loaded to the brim with tomb guard and archers.