Tyranid discussion - How to make tyranids viable.

[Chaos257]

Carnifex in place of regeneration:

Gains a 4 + cover save against shooting due to its big size and stuff. "Oh I shot it in the head ! , nope, that is just a big bit a alien ceramic horn"

Genestealers (not ymgarl) - gain the ability to appear anywhere on the board more than 12 away from an enemy unit after coming out of reserve. May move and assault as normal. For all the haters, this effectively just means they get to assault then die, rather than just die. Also still lack grenades.

Trygons - for extra points - (maybe 25) may assault and fleet the turn they arrive via deepstrike. This just gives the "oh wow" factor that many units give from other armies that nids lack in place of - "lol just shoot it".

Lictors - may assault the turn they arrive.

Endless swarm special rule - all hormagaunts and gaunts gain a 5+ cover save when within 6 of another gaunt or hormagaunt unit and any non TMC unit within 6 of a tethered unit also gains the save.

All models within synapse range gain the preferred enemy special rule to reflect that this should be a bonus and not a hindrance.

Then you have a codex which would be tier 1 and might stand up to the big boys. Not over powered because you still have basically no way to get through opponents tanks. Probably still weaker than space wolves as stuff is still absurdly expensive.

Ok so I won't propose these as what should be in the codex as I know how the minds of people work and they won't accept a buff which would make the army threatening to them but that is how weak I view the current tyranids codex it is so lacking that it would need the above buffs to be viable to win against serious opponents of equal skill.

[Kakapo42]

It's been a while since I've seen one of these threads.

I really think the only real problem Tyranids have is getting into close combat, since most of their anti-armour strength comes in close combat and after the tanks are gone they can easily mop up infantry. Drop some points costs here and there, make a mycetic spore model (and maybe reduce it's cost, I'm not quite sure what the problem with mounting everything in spores is), and do something about that Pyrovore and you'd be set I reckon.

[Nicho]

To the OP, those changes sound awesome but if true id take nothing but a flyrant and a load of genestealers and trygons in my army then watch my opponent cack himself in fear as he moves across the board lol

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[Kurisu313]

This is completely redundant in the shadow of 6th edition.

You'll have to wait and see how things turn out in the next month.

[t-tauri]

Moved to rules development.

[Chaos257]

This is completely redundant in the shadow of 6th edition.

You'll have to wait and see how things turn out in the next month.

Well some of the changes might come true !

Assaulting the turn they arrive by deep strike could be a universal special rule for units with fleet of foot !

Infiltrate could work similar to how lictors work but with scatter ! Think of the possibility of a viable Tyranid army based on a few rule changes.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Apologies if I seem harsh. I simply assume you want my honest opinion.

Carnifex in place of regeneration:

Gains a 4 + cover save against shooting due to its big size and stuff. "Oh I shot it in the head ! , nope, that is just a big bit a alien ceramic horn"

No. Absolutely not. By this logic, the bio-titans should have 2+ cover saves at all time.

Genestealers (not ymgarl) - gain the ability to appear anywhere on the board more than 12 away from an enemy unit after coming out of reserve. May move and assault as normal. For all the haters, this effectively just means they get to assault then die, rather than just die. Also still lack grenades.

No. If you have to assume that most people aren't going to like the idea when you post it, it's probably a bad idea.

There are alternatives.
1) make them run faster
2) give them stealth
3) shave a few points off

Trygons - for extra points - (maybe 25) may assault and fleet the turn they arrive via deepstrike. This just gives the "oh wow" factor that many units give from other armies that nids lack in place of - "lol just shoot it".

No one likes having their big centerpieces shot at by everything in the opponent's army. Tyranids are no different and shouldn't be any different.

The Trygon has 6 wounds, which takes a hell of a lot of firepower to bring down, and if you're deep striking right into a gun base, it's a suicide unit anyway.

Now, that said, I'm fine with allowing them to assault on the turn they arrive, but then you have to change Subterranean Assault so that it isn't so accurate, or make the Trygon 300 points, which I'm sure no one wants to do because it's a bad idea.

Lictors - may assault the turn they arrive.

Fine.

Endless swarm special rule - all hormagaunts and gaunts gain a 5+ cover save when within 6 of another gaunt or hormagaunt unit and any non TMC unit within 6 of a tethered unit also gains the save.

No. No cover saves just for the sake of cover saves. Give them WS 4 and shave a point off.

All models within synapse range gain the preferred enemy special rule to reflect that this should be a bonus and not a hindrance.

No. People used to Fearless armies forget how powerful Morale can be and then forget how good Fearless is. Yes, you take more wounds, but maybe you should stop throwing unsupported units at the enemy and expecting victory or endless tarpitting.

Then you have a codex which would be tier 1 and might stand up to the big boys. Not over powered because you still have basically no way to get through opponents tanks. Probably still weaker than space wolves as stuff is still absurdly expensive.

Abused army lists and playstyles are not an excuse to further abuse the system. You should be out to make the codex solid and give a practiced player a chance at victory against any opponent with any list, not guarantee wins against most of the opponents you face.

[Chaos257]

Apologies if I seem harsh. I simply assume you want my honest opinion.



No. Absolutely not. By this logic, the bio-titans should have 2+ cover saves at all time.



No. If you have to assume that most people aren't going to like the idea when you post it, it's probably a bad idea.

There are alternatives.
1) make them run faster
2) give them stealth
3) shave a few points off



No one likes having their big centerpieces shot at by everything in the opponent's army. Tyranids are no different and shouldn't be any different.

The Trygon has 6 wounds, which takes a hell of a lot of firepower to bring down, and if you're deep striking right into a gun base, it's a suicide unit anyway.

Now, that said, I'm fine with allowing them to assault on the turn they arrive, but then you have to change Subterranean Assault so that it isn't so accurate, or make the Trygon 300 points, which I'm sure no one wants to do because it's a bad idea.



Fine.



No. No cover saves just for the sake of cover saves. Give them WS 4 and shave a point off.



No. People used to Fearless armies forget how powerful Morale can be and then forget how good Fearless is. Yes, you take more wounds, but maybe you should stop throwing unsupported units at the enemy and expecting victory or endless tarpitting.



Abused army lists and playstyles are not an excuse to further abuse the system. You should be out to make the codex solid and give a practiced player a chance at victory against any opponent with any list, not guarantee wins against most of the opponents you face.

Erm.

A trygon can't have twin linked las cannons like large targets in most other armies. If it could I'd agree. it is an entirely different creature to any other large target in the game.

So it is ok for marines to get a twin linked melta/flamer just because they're marines, but swams of nids getting a cover save is not okay ?

That is why I rarely play anymore.

Too marine centric.

Clearly marine players don't want nids or any other force to be viable.

*yawns.

ps - genestealers are the worst unit in the gma,e they cost as much as a marine and die as easily as a guardsman. They need a way to get into combat or they're just useless.

[Son of Sanguinius]

A trygon can't have twin linked las cannons like large targets in most other armies. If it could I'd agree. it is an entirely different creature to any other large target in the game.

Allowing a 6 attack, 6 wound monstrous creature to charge into combat on the turn it arrives is too much, especially when you can easily fit three of them in a 1500 army. There are other ways to make the Trygon more powerful.

So it is ok for marines to get a twin linked melta/flamer just because they're marines, but swams of nids getting a cover save is not okay ?

Who said anything about Marines?

That is why I rarely play anymore.

Too marine centric.

Clearly marine players don't want nids or any other force to be viable.

*yawns.

You should be defending your points with justification and explanation, not assuming that I'm a Space Marine fanboy because I don't like your ideas. I don't even play with a Space Marine army. There is absolutely no reason to be snide about it.

ps - genestealers are the worst unit in the gma,e they cost as much as a marine and die as easily as a guardsman. They need a way to get into combat or they're just useless.

They are far from the worst unit in the game, and with their being T4, I don't see how they die as easily as a guardsman. Are they a good unit? No. But giving a bad unit an overbalanced rule does not make it into a good unit.

I have a friendly recommendation for you. Since you're not doing a full codex re-write, I suggest you try to eliminate problems with units rather than attempt to compensate with powerful rules. It's too complicated to balance properly. And, again, broken rules in other books are not proper justification. Well, to be clear, they aren't justification if you want a good game. If you're just out to make Tyranids as abuseable as Grey Knights, then I'll shut up.

[Gu Long: Ancient Dragon]

I have a friendly recommendation for you. Since you're not doing a full codex re-write, I suggest you try to eliminate problems with units rather than attempt to compensate with powerful rules. It's too complicated to balance properly. And, again, broken rules in other books are not proper justification. Well, to be clear, they aren't justification if you want a good game. If you're just out to make Tyranids as abuseable as Grey Knights, then I'll shut up.

^This. Im a Nid, Ork and Marine player. Yes the Nid dex is tripe but adding ott rules to make it as powerful as the top tier dexes is just daft. The units need to be made useful not stupidly powerful. The only idea I agree with is allowing Lictors to charge the turn they arrive.

Gu