Tournaments and Proxying / WYSIWYG

[SteelTitan]

So, I'm planning on going to a couple of tournaments and was thinking about which list to take when I saw a rule in the comp pack that said 'no proxying allowed, everything has to be wysiwyg. Models/Units not adhering to this rule are removed from the table and counted as casualties'.

I emailed the organizers and gave them a couple of examples and asked them if these were allowed (possible options of what I would want to put in my list). Two of these were:


1. The old Winged Nightmare model (the really old one from Melkhior) as a Varghulf;
2. The old metal Grave Guard, that only came with HW/SH, as Grave Guard with great weapons.


Their response was that the Varghulf was allowed, however the Grave Guard were not. Considering the old metal ones didn't come with great weapons, it seems a bit harsh to disallow people from using their old (bought and painted) ones in their tournaments. I know it's not WYSIWYG so no real reason to complain; you either adhere to the rules or don't attent that particular tournament. But is the line actually drawn there or is there some leniency? What about my old metal mounted wight king? What if I want to run him (rulewise) with a great weapon (which it doesn't have)?


What do you think? Where do you think organizers should draw the line?
Which experiences do you have with being (dis)allowed to use models?

[Lord Damocles]

I don't really see the problem - it's not like you can't use the old Grave Guard models; you just can't use them as having weapons which they're clearly not modelled with, but which they can in fact have.

[medevilmike]

fantasy as a whole has no wysiwyg rule, and thank god for that. That is the first tourny I heard of with one for fantasy. chaos warriors can have hallys but dont come with em, im not paying 15 dollars for like 5 hallys. Id blow that tourny off as a crappily put together tourny.

[Sexiest_hero]

Yeah, don't go. Vote wit your wallet!

[SteelTitan]

What do you think? Where do you think organizers should draw the line?
Which experiences do you have with being (dis)allowed to use models?

Cant say I disagree with any of you! But what about your own experiences? Seen stuff you thought were inacceptable? Etc?

[Jind_Singh]

Generally characters are ok - they don't really need the weapon.

Units - it's pretty clear - I'd expect that the unit should have some visual representation of what they are armed with - even the rule book says that so long as some of the models make it clear - like the 1st two ranks for e.g. then it's ok to mix and match - however a whole unit with h/w and shields is pretty much h/w and shields

[dimetri1]

I don't understand why the to won't let you use your GG. I would just blow this tourney off.

[theunwantedbeing]

If you want to go to a tournament, you have to play by their rules.
If WYSIWYG is one of those rules and you don't have the correct troops you can't complain about being unable to use them as you want to.

Your new chaos warriors don't have halberds?
The previous ones had them....if you haven't got those models then you can't use them with halberds.
Simple really.

I personally got very fed up a few years back when people were refusing to play by WYSIWYG by any means and often the enemy army was a complete mishmash of other things and it became absurdly hard to monitor what everything was supposed to be (even worse when the guy using them would forget and then argue about it).

[IcedCrow]

Basically an event organizer puts an event together. He makes rules. You have to follow those rules. If you find those rules unacceptable, don't play in it.

The rules for my events are basically that the model should look like what it is equipped with or not cause confusion. Models can be historicals, they can be anything really, so long as I can look at the model and know what it is representing without getting overly confused.

I have the grave guard models you are talking about. To me, those would be fine. However, to this tournament organizer they are not. Condolences on that front but really, all you can do is not attend.

[Sheena Easton]

Why not just use the GG as they are armed*? You have the models and are allowed to use them - just not with weapons they clearly aren't carrying. Saying that it is harsh is unfair as you are allowed to use the models as they come (HW + Shield is an option for GG currently) - just not as something they are obviously not as Sword and Shield clearly isn't a Great Weapon. And they are letting you proxy the Varghulf which isn't WYSIWYG so they are as far as I'm concerned being rather accommodating. If HW+Shield was no longer a viable option (like the old DE monopose Warriors from 4th Ed / metals from 3rd or 4th Ed HE Shadow Warriors with Shields) but they were still saying you couldn't use them then that would be harsh.

(*And yes I understand that some people prefer certain builds for tournament / competitive play but if that is their usual build / attending a tournament then they should convert or buy suitably armed models).

[Gradek]

Why not just use the GG as they are armed*? You have the models and are allowed to use them - just not with weapons they clearly aren't carrying. Saying that it is harsh is unfair as you are allowed to use the models as they come (HW + Shield is an option for GG currently) - just not as something they are obviously not as Sword and Shield clearly isn't a Great Weapon. And they are letting you proxy the Varghulf which isn't WYSIWYG so they are as far as I'm concerned being rather accommodating. If HW+Shield was no longer a viable option (like the old DE monopose Warriors from 4th Ed / metals from 3rd or 4th Ed HE Shadow Warriors with Shields) but they were still saying you couldn't use them then that would be harsh.

(*And yes I understand that some people prefer certain builds for tournament / competitive play but if that is their usual build / attending a tournament then they should convert or buy suitably armed models).

Except that Warhammer Fantasy is not WYSIWYG and never has been. This isn't 40k. So long as you clearly tell your opponent what it is that your units are armed with (potentially little labels put on their trays) you should be fine. The fun of warhammer fantasy is getting to change up your builds frequently and without having to have 120 models to be able to play 40 empire spearmen in one game, 40 swordsmen the next, and 40 halberdiers another time.

[Jind_Singh]

But you dont' need 40 spears, 40 halberds, etc - you can have a mish-mash of models that make up the 40 - but so long as it's easy to tell how the unit is armed it's all good and well.

My Orc boys for e.g. have spears, additional choppas and choppa shield combos - but the 1st 2 ranks show the load out for the unit - the other ranks have a random mix of models. I still only have the 50 models though for the army - but they can be used with different builds in other games - WYSIWYG has never been as controlled as it is in 40k but there has always been an element of it.

As a tournament organizer I can see why they would include this - as when you have a lot of games to oversee, players to manage, you need simplicity to make the event run smoother - and WYSIWYG helps do that as it'll lead to less confusion on the day - and a tournament game is much faster paced than a normal friendly game - so in the heat of the event it's easy for someone to forget or overlook something - especially if it's the 4th or 5th gasme they just played!!

[Sheena Easton]

Except that Warhammer Fantasy is not WYSIWYG and never has been. This isn't 40k. So long as you clearly tell your opponent what it is that your units are armed with (potentially little labels put on their trays) you should be fine. The fun of warhammer fantasy is getting to change up your builds frequently and without having to have 120 models to be able to play 40 empire spearmen in one game, 40 swordsmen the next, and 40 halberdiers another time.

Except that there the tournament in question is specifically WYSIWYG.

If you are having a friendly game and your opponent doesn't mind you using spears as hand weapons or halberds or crossbows then fine - but ultimately if you are at a tournament that rules units should be WYSIWYG as per the OP (or playing an opponent who expects WYSIWYG) you should show up with WYSIWYG armies.

With the tournament rules the OP is referring to, units have to be WYSIWYG or they are removed as casualties - yet they are allowing some proxying and the OP had the courtesy of contacting them in advance to clarify the situation with his intended proxies. If he isn't happy with the decision he reserves the right to not attend the tournament, otherwise has the option of modifying his list to include his GG as they are armed (which is perfectly legal as GG can have the weapons his models have) or with replacing them with GW armed models, or swapping them for something else entirely. Same as if the tournament in question meant you could only take 1 rare when the OPs list had 2, or Special Characters were banned when he was taking Manfred, Isabella and Konrad - adapt the list for the event or don't go.

I think any kind of organised event / tournament should have a degree of WYSIWYG and you should be able to look at a unit and see what it is / armed with simply to keep things simple for all parties involved. Having said that, I'd rather face a fully painted army with a few proxied units (such as those GG counting as having GW provided every GG so armed counted as such) than a mass of unpainted models or units of 50 Zombies / Skaven / Goblins / Halbediers which consist of 30 assorted man-sized models plus 16 rocks and an unconverted Ogre...

But you dont' need 40 spears, 40 halberds, etc - you can have a mish-mash of models that make up the 40 - but so long as it's easy to tell how the unit is armed it's all good and well.

I seem to recall 4th or 5th edition had an explicit rule regarding this and like any good Greenskin player I had a few swords and Double-Handed Axes in my Spear and Shield mobs but 75% had the required weapons. Though I am aware that I am in a minority of players that aside from a few brief exceptions played a WYSIWYG army - and those exceptions were easily identifiable as what they were representing such as WE Archers for HE Archers, my only Chariot being my Warboss for a few games.

[IcedCrow]

Our rule and the rule I've seen most often in fantasy is that the unit should be over 50% modeled how they have their weapons. So example I have 30 tomb guard, and 20 have hand weapon / shield but I own 10 models that have halberds. I can put them in the back and no one makes a stink.

[Soundwave]

I think that is harsh any decent opponent would allow such things to slide.There is no real problem if such units with different weapons are clearly pointed out before the game commences its not like any one would forget or if they do all that has to be done is ask?To not allow a front rank standing with the appropriate attire either is a complete waste!

[Asensur]

special weapons and shield options, other than magic items (unless they are a special weapon or a shield at their description), should be represented at the model. Other options, as light/heavy armour, are harder to show and you have more freedom to represent those options.


Doing other way confuses your opponent, as there is not suitable way to recognize units (and no, reminding your oponent who has each options is not a legal way to avoid this, as your opponent doesn't need to remember all your proxies during all the match).

However, you can add models with other weapon options within your unit. Just be sure that above 50% of the models have the correct weapon options, put the other weapons' models within the rear ranks and take out those models first when casualties are made.

[Banville]

There's no rule in WHFB about WYSIWYG at all. Everything I own is WYSWYG just because I'm a bit OCD about things to the extent that I have about 5 differently modelled Lords. However, I assume most people have the intelligence that if an opponent points to one or two units and says these guys are armed with blah blah, they might be able to remember it. Jeez, players have a thousand rules and interactions in their heads all the time. It's not rocket science. I've no problem at all with proxies or the like.

In saying that, a tourney organiser is quite within their rights to impose any conditions and restrictions, no matter how arbitrary, on those taking part.

[SkawtheFalconer]

If you end up going to this tourney, I'd be amazed if you didn't see at least one instance of non-WYSIWIG troop types. I have lost count of the number of times tourney organisers have ignored their own rules on the day for a simple life - I even had to play against one unpainted army in a tourney, which really should be drawing the line.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with you fielding that unit so long as you made it very clear at start of game that they weren't WYSIWIG and why. Sadly, it's not my tourney, so you'll have to go with what they said.

[Banville]

Incidentally Privateer Press have guidelines for WYSIWYG written into their core rules. I think it's any conversion must be based on the actual model and be readily identifiable as the model in question. No proxies or conversions are allowed at official tournaments. It's a completely different game-system however, and one which relies on the powers of individual pieces in a lot of circumstances so I can see where they're coming from. Although, interestingly, even with such a tight definition and binding set of rules I've seen every tourney organiser of PP events abide more by the "rule of cool" than anything official. Basically, if the conversion looks cool then you're good to go. I think if your Grave Guard were well painted and based and had even three or four models in the front two or three ranks replaced with, I don't know, converted plastic skellies with great weapons, I couldn't see a reasonable person objecting to it.

[Snake1311]

I'm 99% certain there is a rule in the BRB covering WYSIWYG. I'll quote a page when I get home.

Playing against units which are equipped with X but the models are clearly equipped with Y is a pain in the ass. Tourney games are usually above standard size (2400 rather than 2000 pts) and are generally meant to finish withing 3 hours at longest; which means you haven't got time to re-ask questions of 'so this unit had what now?' just to make sure.

Not to mention, confusing your opponent and forcing them extra things to remember gives you an edge.

The Vargulf was allowed because its clearly a Vargulf. The GG are clearly hand weapon and shield, so to field them otherwise would confuse everyone.