My idea (and the one I like the best) is for Bretonnian knights to have special rule that allows them to count full ranks with three models (six for hordes), just like monstrous cavalry.
Simple and leverages existing game mechanics.
My idea (and the one I like the best) is for Bretonnian knights to have special rule that allows them to count full ranks with three models (six for hordes), just like monstrous cavalry.
Simple and leverages existing game mechanics.
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Empire got detachments.Originally Posted by T10
No reason Bretonnians can't get a lance rule as a result (with no horde option because in all seriousness, that is a really stupid idea).
There's nothing wrong with the current lance, all GW needs to do is copy & paste it from the current book into the next one.
Saves them time, money and from managing to write a terribly worded set of rules that need an FAQ that never comes.
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But how will they spend their time? That and needlessly raising prices are their two main hobbies.
Well yeah. But My bro made custom trays back then he had no problem with that. And it looked great (and made ranking the knights easier too, btw).
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The problem for me really is just the amount of damage my lance can do.. something like horde a lance formation doesnt really do anything good exept make it an even more bigger target. the lance in 5th was cool looking bit it felt strange to play with.. how the lance is formed now feels a lot better.
just copy paste it into the new book.. and i would lovely vote for devestating charge.
as it is.. the lance really works well besides the killing power it used to do in 6th/7th
heavy armour on peasants:P thats not really fluffwise tho..
NO, no, no and no. If anything lets go back to the arrowhead formation - and for archers. I like the fact Brettonians actually look both different and sensible on the battlefield.
The lance works just fine as it is. All Brets really need is some recosting and maybe a couple of new options.
We are arguing. On the internet. About a fantasy. Wargame. There's absolutely no way we are not nerds, and no reason whatsoever to try to make some sort of hierarchy.
Oh man I'd forgotten that the archers could do it too. No matter the edition, the darn Brets archers have always been a massive pain in my backside, after all
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Aside from the fact that a larger bret unit is only 3 models wide yet incredible long (which both looks like a joke and leaves enormous flanks) the lance mechanic is outdated.
I kind of like the horde idea. Make it so that 6 modelswide count as a horde for brets. Then atleast i could field 6x3 and get good attacks every round.
Another way to go could be rather than giving the brets unit bonuses (like detachment, the lance etc that really reminds me of discpline rather than knightly courage), would be to make the lance rule into a personal rule for the knights.
Ie after the first round of combat the skill of the knight makes it so that he doesnt lose momentum and gets to keep the atleast a +1str bonus every round
Maybe let them use lances if charged, as they countercharge, jousting anyone.
Or
Maybe give them (or Bretonnian Horses) Impact Hits(1) to represent the trained impact of their charge.
Im just brain-storming ideas.
I see Devastating Charge as more Grail Knights than Knights of the Realm.
Currently the lance formation rules takes about a page in the army book and needs the FAQ, I rather something shorter and simpler.
But that is only my opinion. I don't play Bretonnians and the only player I knew who did stopped playing GW games a year or two ago.
My preference is a slight boost on the charge (somehow) to enable them to have a slightly easier time breaking the enemy on the charge.
A slight boost would also keep their points down.
What the Lance formation does for Brets most in 8th ed is not to massively increase their offensive potential (at most you're going to get 6 extra knight attacks and 6 extra horse attacks - very nice, but not a combat decider and that's only on a 15 strong lance), but instead gives them access to ranks.
Without easy access to ranks pretty much everything will be steadfast against knights and with General and BSB bubbles this means most troops aren't going anywhere, leaving the knights high and dry. With the ranks that the lance gives it means that a) you're more likely to counter the static combat res of the opposing infantry and b) with enough damage caused you can negate their steadfast and hopefully break them.
Some ideas make little sense from a historical perspective.
Lances in the sense of a narrow formation for condensed penetrating power is a popular and seemingly plausible image but a body of men is not a piece of steel driven into wood. Knights (incidentally, generally German Knights) would employ it on the approach because of limited C&C capabilities but would almost always widen their formation shortly before or during the actual charge to bring as many men and weapons into the fight as possible.
Knights, protected as they may have been, would rarely crash into each other or infantry if they could avoid it, as it could very easily lead to stumbling and finally mortally wounded horses, breaking up of formations and all sorts of calamities. The enemy either fled from the terrifying sight and was cut down, buckled and so inadvertently widened the gaps, allowing knights room to maneouver and use swords, or they would stand and force the knights to turn around and come at them again.
For these reasons, impact hits are very unrealistic, as bodily impacts almost always were unintended and, uh, problematic for both sides. The same goes for a wedge formation, which might look good but is not the sharpened tip of a spear but a single man and horse in front and the vast majority of arms not coming to bear.
In this vein, I would argue for a new special rule that tries to reflect this and affects enemy morale. Have the target take an Ld test to represent the sight of the charge. Introduce some kind of modifier the Breton player can influence, perhaps based on ranks, so that it is effective in the light of General, BSB, stubborn etc. bubbles. It could be modelled along the lines of terror, or it could, if failed, mean a stat decrease (-1 to hit, less attacks, there are options) or increase. Wouldn't help against everyone of course but would be immensely fluffy.
Secondly, introduce a new lance rule. Lances - the weapons - were used because of their reach (which supports my PoV from above about not crashing into the ranks). As soon as there was no sarissa phalanx or disciplined unbudging legion anymore, knights and their precursors dominated the battle fields, and continued to do so until they were faced with what was essentially an early modern version of it in the form of Swiss pikes and Landsknechts with, amongst other factors, a longer reach. Ergo: Give Breton lance-armed knights ASF on the charge.
Together with point drops, no unit caps and a few tweaks here and there you could easily turn them into a force to be reckoned with. We don't want cavalry back that is guaranteed to break everything it touches, we don't want Chaos Knights in human armies but in this way you could charge in with a chance to break or weaken the enemy, do tremendous damage, and if you get stuck, charge in a second unit.
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I have no idea what this means, please explain.
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Meat is Murder tasty, tasty murder
Command and Control: "The exercise of authority and direction by a properly designated commander over assigned and attached forces in the accomplishment of the mission. Command and control functions are performed through an arrangement of personnel, equipment, communications, facilities, and procedures employed by a commander in planning, directing, coordinating, and controlling forces and operations in the accomplishment of the mission." Also abbreviated C2, or extended to C³ in modern armies (includes - primarily technical - communication).
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/dod_dictionary/
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Okay, I shall retort with
It's called warhammer fantasy, not warhammer boring where everything fits a similar but entirely accurate historical counterpart example that means no interesting rules for anyone.
Plan B kill it with fire
Meat is Murder tasty, tasty murder
With Bret horses being supposedly stronger than equivalents in the old world a str bonus to the horses on the charge while in the lance formation would be cool too. Maybe +1 strength for each rank bonus. That or give Bret horses stomp.
What are you blabbering about? There clearly IS no historical counterpart for everything, so please explain what that means - if it means anything. You have Pegasi, magical armour and swords, enchantresses, and will be allied to seclusive Elves living on trees.Okay, I shall retort with
It's called warhammer fantasy, not warhammer boring where everything fits a similar but entirely accurate historical counterpart example that means no interesting rules for anyone.
Warhammer Fantasy does not mean everything has to be chaotic to be interesting. Come to think of it, the current lance formation is probably supposed to be a historic reminiscence, GW only reversed German and French knights (which were said to charge en haye instead of in cuneus; in fact both extended their front on the charge).
The Germans are exceedingly fond of Rhine wines; they are put up in tall, slender bottles, and are considered a pleasant beverage. One tells them from vinegar by the label.
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The Impact Hits would not be from the bodies, but from the actual LANCE weapon, which is VERY realistic considering the rule structure being employed. If the Bretonnian Lance were implemented as I suggested earlier, it would only provide +2 Str Impact Hits, followed by normal attacks from hand weapon and mount as they switched to normal weaponry for close range combat.
It's because you were trying to use historical and real life situations to guide the rules or interpretation of the game.
Last edited by Charistoph; 20-06-2012 at 15:37.
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Cheap core soldiers with halberds is already quite good, I don't expect them to ever have heavy armour. They're peasants after all. Maybe, but very, very unlikely, there might be an elite infantry unit like unhorsed (or poor) knights in the future, but I doubt it.
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My Impacts idea was not for the lances with +2 Str, thats more powerful than Devastating Charge, but at the base str of 3.
Horses will not run into a person deliberately, you aimed between people, as they train police horses now. But people can be run down by horses, as has happened in history, but it is more the horse clipping the person. At speed it can cause a lot of damage. This is also fantasy however and horses can be a lot more aggressive here.
We also can't forget that Bretonnian Knights are already special in that they have a Ward save and are immune to panic.
Okay.
And that's wrong in which way...? Lots of stuff is guided by this principle - cue the existing lance formation. Horses are faster than men, don't spit fire, and don't tunnel. They don't do that because it isn't realistic I suppose even though it would be very interesting. Models die if stuck with a pointy end bypassing their armour. Peasants don't have/should not get heavy armour. All attacks and weapons usually follow some basic concept of reality, if abstracted and watered down by the need to cater to magic and game-balance.It's because you were trying to use historical and real life situations to guide the rules or interpretation of the game.
As a matter of fact, I also like 8th because it better represents the role of unit types than previous editions, so in this light I cannot see a good reason not to use historical precedent. Of course it's fully possible to give Bretonnian Knights some kind of magic ability. A ward perhaps. Oh, wait...
My suggestion also addresses one fundamental problem, namely that cavalry that is stuck is often in dire straits. They don't need better strength on the charge. More attacks like your impact hits could help to remove steadfast. It's still an existing rule like mine, so it's no more interesting in that regard.
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