stand and shot and range

[Mr_Rose]

Sorry for keeping to pressure on the original question. The skinks get to shoot even while out of weapon range? Does this mean they technically get to shoot but they can't because of range or does it mean in the stand and shoot phase weaponrange isn't taken into account (would become crazy for things like throwing axes).

Unless the charging unit is already closer when the charge is declared, all SnS shooting is resolved at the maximum range of the shortest ranged weapon in the unit. If the charging unit takes enough casualties it can panic and, if it does, will run from its position when the charge was declared.
This all happens before anyone rolls for charge reach, BTW; so many people get that wrong, it's like they havent read the rulebook or something.

[Artinam]

Ah thank you very much
So if I get it right. I declare a charge, Skinks declare stand and shoot, which is immediately resolves before we roll charge reach or anything (at the point the charging unit starts). If panic is caused you roll for this first. If the charger does not panic or die due to stand and shoot he roll his charge dice and then its normal (completed or failed charge ect). (that sucks for the thunderers if they have a brace of pistols guy and they are charged from more then 12 inch away).

This would thus mean that you can have charges that are essentially unassailable by stand and shoot (charging a unit with throwing axes 16 inch away means that the receiving unit can essentially do no damage with a stand and shoot. It makes my Bretonnians a bit more interesting if this is the case. Although most units will probably be unable to shoot.

[The bearded one]

No, all the ranged weapons are fired, even if the enemy is far out of range like with the throwing axes.

I'm quite sure all the issues that came up in this thread are treated quite adequately in the BRB shooting section;

- stand and shoot is worked out when the charger declares a charge and the chargee declare his S&S reaction. Even if it turns out the charger doesn't even make it into the range of their ranged weapons, the weapons are still fired and it is assumed they are fired from the range of the shortest-ranged weapon in the unit; a unit of thunderers with a veteran with pistols will fire as though the enemy is 12" away, meaning the other thunderers will not suffer a long range penalty.

I shall quote page 17 of the BRB on stand&shoot:

"A stand and shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off."

Even if the charger never even gets into the maximum range of the stand&shoot unit, the unit still fires, and it will fire as though the opponent got within range of theit shortest-ranged weapon. A hypothetical unit of throwing weapons (12") with 1 model with a throwing axe (6") gets charged by a unit of knights from over 18" away; the unit stands and shoots and fires; this is worked out as if the knights got to within 6", so the throwing weapons fire at short range. Then after all charges are declared and all reactions resolved, the knights roll their charge and it turns out they roll tripple 1's and don't even get close to the maximum range of the unit.

[Lorcryst]

Thanks The bearded one, now it's crystal clear for me (at least), I'll happily make a note of that and spread the word from now on !

[Artinam]

Thank you bearded one, makes perfect sense .

The explanation behind it makes it seem obvious as well. Its a major change from the older rules thats why I kept persisting . And yes I know I should forget all previous edition rules, but habits die hard.

[Gradek]

No, all the ranged weapons are fired, even if the enemy is far out of range like with the throwing axes.

I'm quite sure all the issues that came up in this thread are treated quite adequately in the BRB shooting section;

- stand and shoot is worked out when the charger declares a charge and the chargee declare his S&S reaction. Even if it turns out the charger doesn't even make it into the range of their ranged weapons, the weapons are still fired and it is assumed they are fired from the range of the shortest-ranged weapon in the unit; a unit of thunderers with a veteran with pistols will fire as though the enemy is 12" away, meaning the other thunderers will not suffer a long range penalty.

I shall quote page 17 of the BRB on stand&shoot:

"A stand and shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off."

Even if the charger never even gets into the maximum range of the stand&shoot unit, the unit still fires, and it will fire as though the opponent got within range of theit shortest-ranged weapon. A hypothetical unit of throwing weapons (12") with 1 model with a throwing axe (6") gets charged by a unit of knights from over 18" away; the unit stands and shoots and fires; this is worked out as if the knights got to within 6", so the throwing weapons fire at short range. Then after all charges are declared and all reactions resolved, the knights roll their charge and it turns out they roll tripple 1's and don't even get close to the maximum range of the unit.

Which is why you always upgrade your Empire Outriders sharpshooter to have the brace and repeater pistol. This lets your other outriders shoot at short range for their 12 shots (assuming 4 regulars and 1 champ).

[T10]

There is a rather comprehensive thread on this subject here:

Dwarf Thunderer Champions

I know a lot of people get all hot and bothered about the prospect of making their S&S at a faux short thanks to the presence of a poor-range weapon. This kind of "Wait for it!" charge reaction was a part of 7th edition (the charging unit was effectively halted at the range where all models able and allowed to shoot were in range), so I can see why people would want to bring it into 8th as well.

For your convenience, a rules quote:

A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off.

Now, in any S&S the chargers will either a) start outside the maximum range of the unit or b) within range of one or more models.

In the case of a) there are rules about how out-of-range weapons get to shoot at their maximum range, and this part is kind of open to interpretation towards the "Wait for it!" mechanic. I say "kind of" because a lot of people do, and I don't think they are idiots; they obviously see something here. I guess it's something like this:

"...the [unit's] shooting is resolved normally [by] assuming [that] the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon [for each shooting model]."

In case of b) the rules say... nothing. Apparently no exception to normal shooting applies if some models are out of range, and for normal shooting that means they don't get to shoot.

Personally, I think they should have kept S&S shooting on a model-by-model basis rather than involving the unit level. I don't see the problem with some models shooting at long range and others at short range (you know, just like normal shooting) with the added clause that any models with out-of-range weapons get also to shoot at their weapon's maximum range - because the target is essentially moving from out-of-range into close combat!

-T10

[MLP]

Normally it's the unit champion with the shorter range pistol or whatever, so I just asume that the champion has taken control of his men and to them to hold their fire until he shoots. That's how I explain it to my opponents who don't like the rule anyway.

It would be good if there was a bit more to stand and shoot, like a leadership test to see what range they fire at. The champaion might want them to hold fire until his shot, doesn't mean they will!

[Danny76]

As quoted above. It doesn't matter if out of range.
They shoot and you treat the shot as if it was just inside their range (So no measuring needs to take place for the shots, unless you are checking the range of longrange weapons because of a pistol etc, you just get to fire).

[bad dice]

Yes, and the rest of his unit has to wait to shoot untill then as well.
Page 17, bottom left hand side

The tricky bit is getting your dwarf opponent to realise that just because his champion stands and shoots at 12", it doesn't mean that everyone in the unit also gets to shoot as if they were only firing at 12".

Then you would be cheating
You count as standing an shooting at the max ragne of the shortes ranges weapon in the unit. In this case 12. So +1 to hit for those thunderers.

I know stupid rule but the truth

[dms505]

It used to just have the chargers move half the distance and then check the shooting range to see if they could shoot and whether they got any negatives. The newer rules have sped things up but also dumbed it down to the point where some rules don't make since in physical terms.

[T10]

Then you would be cheating
You count as standing an shooting at the max ragne of the shortes ranges weapon in the unit. In this case 12. So +1 to hit for those thunderers.

I know stupid rule but the truth

Debatable, but even assuming this is true it only applies if the chargers start outside the maximum range of the thunderers, that is: more than 24" away. See post 27 above.