I mean... not every army has access to supercheap Goblin heroes with supercheap magical weapons. - just as not every army has access to high elf champs with magical weapons worth up to 25pts - it's just to way it is <huh!>
I mean... not every army has access to supercheap Goblin heroes with supercheap magical weapons. - just as not every army has access to high elf champs with magical weapons worth up to 25pts - it's just to way it is <huh!>
Dark elves have 2 great and extreme examples of this.Firstly the unit champions of both the darkriders and shades both have additional ballistic skill and attack!This works really well although the bloodshade(shade champ) costs double your average shade i think the points are justified. The next example are both Tullaris and Kouran both a little overcosted unit character upgrades,for all they might do it is only one wound to stop them,no thank you!
So you just noted I mentioned how the old champion rules were used for magic item tricks... but didn't bother to actually read anything else in there.Originally Posted by amakiir
As I mentioned in my last post, the problem is that characters got WS, BS, Str and Att upgrades - all increasing their damage output, but they were no harder to kill than regular chumps in their squads. This meant they were immediately targeted and killed by any model in BtB. Fixing this problem would mean granting them toughness or wound increases... at which point you're basically looking at a Hero.
This is a problem whether you grant them access to magical attacks or not.
Last edited by Jezbot; 21-06-2012 at 07:18.
Yes it's definitely worth that much! You're not paying 10 points for +1A, you're paying it for +1A and the ability to challenge and accept challenges, which is huge. I mean it basically buys you an extra round of combat against a solo kill lord, and it can save a charachter in your unit, and it can help to neuter enemy damage for a turn. The reason you'd do this instead of paying 30 points for a big boss is that you save 17 points, and it doesn't come out of your heroes allowance. Do this across a few units, and you've magicked up an extra 51 points to spend on your army - certainly worthwhile!
Less "phasing out", more "removing entirely with the advent of a previous edition". The last one they had was the champion for the Gor Units in the 6th edition Beasts of Chaos book, which was basically a Bestigor champion.
They've actually been "phasing in" special unit champions in recent books, so that makes much of your point moot.
Personally, I wouldn't use a more expensive 1 wound character. It's pretty much giving away more VPs in 8th edition with the step-up rules.
Last edited by BigbyWolf; 21-06-2012 at 13:34.
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I would love champions with a bit of extra flash to them. But that's mostly because I play WoC and all of my champions are forces to challenge--an extra S, T, I or WS would make a massive difference to them.
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I like the toned-down champions in the sense that they are unit upgrades, but it irks me that they can be picked out killed.
Back in 4th and 5th edition there was the (poorly defined) concept of the "unit leader", which was more of a role than a type of model: even units without a champion or a character should have a designated leader model; presumably this is the model that makes the unit's Leadership tests...
I would not be adverse to the idea of units buying a champion as a unit upgrade with an special function with connection to the unit rather than being just a single model with improved characteristics.
In addition to being a better fighter (at least at offense) the champion has a role in resolving challenges, and it is this function I'm paying those extra points for. In this regard it is unfortunate that the enemy can neutralize that function by allocating attacks to the champion with no real drawbacks.
Perhaps a regular rank-and-file trooper could be nominated as a new champion (no characteristics change!) if the current champion is killed. This "field promotion" option could be lost if the current champion is ever killed in a challenge?
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Depends on the army. With Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elfs, High Elfs, etc. I'm perfectly fine with equipment options and even some stat upgrades other than A or BS which isn't too common with them.
With most armies otherwise I kind of base it on point cost and how the champion is viewed. Like a Skavenslave champion (forget the name) is still a skavenslave; while on the other hand an Orc Boss (champion) is usually the biggest toughest guy around and gets +1 S and WS (unless the unit is already big uns) he's also paying a lot more than some other champions.
Would it makes sense for a Skeleton champion to really be stronger? Not really. Same with Chosen since that'd put them at the same strength of their actual characters.
Basically it comes down to case by case, but BS and attack are always safe; WS could also be excused pretty easily. Wounds, or Toughness are a little tougher to argue (again that puts them in character range) and usually strength is a bit of a too big of a change. Initiative would be reasonable I suppose and Leadership kind of depends on the unit/army but usually I think they can do without it (no sense in making the unit champion completely mandatory).
In terms of magic equipment I generally think it's perfectly fine for elite armies or armies that are known for having good stuff like most elfs, WoC etc.
The only other thing is non magic equipment like brace of pistols and I usually just think why not. If the hand gunners want a sniper leading them, why not.
I don't remember that, I only remember unit champions were character choices like heroes and lords.
I'm very fine with that, because the corollary to that is that if in contact with only the champion and no regular troop, the enemy will have to waste attacks on just that one guy. It's a major point in my goblin horde, that: champion+3 nasty skulkers plus whatever heroes are in there means the first turn of anybody charging my unit will waste an humongous amount of attacks as they can't attack the regular gobs at all thanks to them, which is all I need to level the field a bit.
Last edited by Urgat; 21-06-2012 at 19:17.
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It had basically no tangible effect on the game. The leader couldn't issue or accept challenges, nor did he have different stats to the rest of the unit. I think the only real effect (and this was minor) was that in the event of a reform the leader was the reference point (although it might have been the musician or standard bearer: my memory fails me). Of course the reform rules were rather more complex back then, especially in 4th ed. I don't remember anybody actually designating a leader, and in the event that a unit had a champion it was usually assumed that he was it, but he didn't have to be.
True, a lot of the old RoR actually had several named members, including champions, standard bearers, musicians and an additional leader. At least I remember seeing the references to these.
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The unit leader was basically an opportunity to have a second cool model in the unit in addition to the champion. That's how I understood it.
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That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I think it'd work pretty well. To smooth it out a little, you could say that the champion simply can't be picked out and attacked seperately by models in base to base (as like other unit upgrades it is assumed that if he is killed someone steps up to take his place). But if the champion accepts a challenge and gets mashed in a big profile fight by an enemy character, then no-one steps up to take his place.
I would think that with the gobbo champion you're paying for the challenge options rather than the +1A so much.
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I like the champions with some additional better stats. For a lot of armies, they'll nicely create a bridge between a normal rank-and-file model and a hero, which is often 2 points of WS, BS, A and I ahead of the curve. By creating a champion with stats like these 1 point higher, you'd feel a more natural progression to a hero imho. Don't increase their points cost though; champions are already expensive enough as is. Even more, I'd advocate dropping the prices of command group models to 5 per model, just to encourage full command groups more (because let's be honest; a unit looks way better with full command).
Bretonnian Men-at-Arms and the Trebuchet have such stat increasing champions.
The Men-at-Arms 'Yeomen Warden' has +1 WS, BS, LD, A. So you directly improve you units with the increased leadership (Ld6 !). The upgrade costs as much as a Chosen Warrior of Chaos which is the major downside. The Trebuchet with its champion actually gets BS 3 and LD 6 as well, both decent upgrades (bit expensive though).
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In the case of the Empire state troops I do wish I could arm my champion with a greatsword - as is given to us in the box...
Admittedly it would be a pretty stupid idea, but it would soothe my ocd.
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i really wish brets had a champion that got to spend 25 pts on an item.. like a demi hero... o well til i start beastmen..
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You have lord aand hero allowances for bad ass charcters, adding buffed up unit champs is a step back towards hero hammer IMO. Spend less on the those lvl4 wizards and buy more combat characters, GW is slowly getting the message to buff them.
Way more of a fan of bringing combat lords and heros into the picture than making champions mini heroes. Aslo champions are not expensive especially since in a number of armies they provide great peotection for characters when challenged.
Last edited by Doommasters; 26-06-2012 at 04:29.
Considering champions are free and paladins are dirt cheap, you don't really have any grounds from complaint :>
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