Banshee & Terrorgheist screams

[Maoriboy007]

are distributed as if from shooting
ergo, you are distributing wounds as though the attack is a normal one in the shooting phase, and the rules for the shooting phase specify that you are not able to target units in combat. Therefore, you are not able to distribute wounds from shooting into combat..

Does that mean Stomps & Impact hits cannot target units in combat if they are distributed like shooting?

[Athlan na Dyr]

Somebody find me the rule that says "treat these shooting attacks as a shooting attack, and distribute them as shooting attacks" and the people claiming it is a shooting attack might have a case.

For Banshees:

Wounds from a Ghostly Howl are magical attacks and are distributed as if from shooting

For Terrorgheists:

A Death Shriek is a magical attack and Wounds suffered from it are distributed as from shooting

Ergo, both tell you to distribute the wounds as though they were from regular shooting.
The regular shooting rules have a specific clause stating that you cannot target units engaged in close combat. To me, this is the same as stating that you cannot distribute wounds from shooting to a unit engaged in close combat. I do however realise that many will not interpret it in the same way, but it raises enough doubt in my mind that I give my opponent the benefit.

The howl is not treated as a regular shooting attack due to it not needing to hit, not needing to wound and not being able to make a stand and shoot charge reaction.

You can argue that the description on using the scream enables it to target units in combat, but there is no statement that explicitly states "You can shoot a unit enagaged in combat", merely a quesitonable implicit one. As such, I give my opposition the benefit of the doubt and play my Terrorgheist as not being able to. This is one for the FAQ however, whenever the damnable thing finally comes out.

[Iraf]

The Terrorgheist/Banshee can only shoot into combat it is apart of, because of the fact that it says "...only target an enemy unit in base contact." You can't very well be in base contact with a unit unless you're in combat.

[Kayosiv]

Ergo, both tell you to distribute the wounds as though they were from regular shooting.
The regular shooting rules have a specific clause stating that you cannot target units engaged in close combat. To me, this is the same as stating that you cannot distribute wounds from shooting to a unit engaged in close combat. I do however realise that many will not interpret it in the same way, but it raises enough doubt in my mind that I give my opponent the benefit.

While it is of course open to interpretation because there is no "may be fired into combats you are not apart of" clause, do note that many things that are used in close combat (thunderstomps, impact hits etc.) are distributed like shooting attacks. Now of course those things can only be used in combats they are apart of, but they do not have explicit rules explaining them to be "special attacks" that have a range of 8 inches.

The Terrorgheist/Banshee can only shoot into combat it is apart of, because of the fact that it says "...only target an enemy unit in base contact." You can't very well be in base contact with a unit unless you're in combat.

That is not the entire rule. The entire relevant part of the rule you are talking about states, "If the banshee is engaged in combat, her Ghostly Howl can only target an enemy unit in base contact." This is not an exception to the rule, it is a limitation to the rule. If she's engaged, than she can only shoot at the unit she's engaged with. If she's not engaged she can shoot at whatever, as long as it is within 8" and within line of sight.

[T10]

Anvil of Doom and Warshrines abilities operate in the shooting phase, neither of which are shooting attacks.

And that's supposed to prove something?

The warshrine does not make ranged attacks.

The damage power of the anvil is quite similar to the treeman strangleroot attack, a shooting attack.

[T10]

The banshee scream attack causes a number of automatic wounds, which are distributed as shooting.

It's not entirely approptiate to do this since there is no process for allocating "shooting wounds" but rather "shooting hits". However, it requires no great imagination to resolve this: 7 wounds on a unit of Orcs results in 7 dead Orcs. On a unit of Ogres the result is 2 dead Ogres and 1 wound extra.

The underlying logic can probably be explained as "7 wounds" here meaning the same as "7 automatic hits that each causes 1 automatic wound".

[GrottoKnight]

The two "screams have carried over from the old rules basically. They can "scream" while in combat or at a unit which is not in combat. They cannot "scream" at a engaged unit as it stated the exceptions granted to it while maintaining its shooting aspect but does not state it can shoot at an engaged unit. (think of this as the "don't want to hurt my own dudes rule" which shooting follows)

[T10]

How DARE YOU suggest that it is in any way a shooting attack!?

[Smogg]

The two "screams have carried over from the old rules basically. They can "scream" while in combat or at a unit which is not in combat. They cannot "scream" at a engaged unit as it stated the exceptions granted to it while maintaining its shooting aspect but does not state it can shoot at an engaged unit. (think of this as the "don't want to hurt my own dudes rule" which shooting follows)

I don't think it make sense to look at previous editions of the rules for screams since the rule have changed for each edition. You are right that 7th edition was FAQ'ed to screaming not allowed into the close combat (without any reasoning), but 6th edition allowed it and it and further elabotated in the FAQ : "Because it is not a shooting attack".

With regards to how I want to think of the scream. Well I just read The Red Duke, where a banshee plays a key role in the book. Here her screams were mental and only heard by her intended victims, so I can easily think of her scream as something that could indeed be used in a very focused way without damaging the minds of her friendly skeletons.

[madival]

Here her screams were mental and only heard by her intended victims, so I can easily think of her scream as something that could indeed be used in a very focused way without damaging the minds of her friendly skeletons.

Skeletons have minds? When did this happen ?

On a serious note, the banshee scream and terror scream are not shooting attacks. The best arguement to try and claim they are is the "distrubted wounds as shooting" which is there to keep the dead random. We talked it over at the FLGS and determined it would work. Even then, they often didn't do enough to matter. The terror gheist may be different, but it rarely limits then screaming enough to matter.

[Lance Tankmen]

well im going to play it as they cant shoot into combats they arent a part of, which raises a question, are there any similar range attacks that can shoot into combats they arent a part of?

[T10]

The best arguement to try and claim they are is the "distrubted wounds as shooting" which is there to keep the dead random.

I don't think the part about distributing wounds can be used to prove anything. The scream is a single attack that causes one or more wounds, and without the instruction to distribute one might assume that damage could be applied to a single model (capped), or even that damage be applied to each model in the unit

[Montegue]

Iraf answered this question succinctly above. You can only target a unit in combat if you're in base contact with it.

[Smogg]

well im going to play it as they cant shoot into combats they arent a part of, which raises a question, are there any similar range attacks that can shoot into combats they arent a part of?

First of all they can't shoot at all because they are not shooting attacks. Even if VC's in general were allowed to Stand and Shoot, the howls could not be used for that either.
But that aside...

Exploding Mortis Engine or Exploding Casket of Souls:
- Both cause hits or damage distributed as from shooting.
- Both are ranged.
- Both would affect units in close combat.
- They are not shooting attacks
Are they similar? Well thats a subjective thing, and you did not say what you meant here. They just came to my mind since you asked.

As I see it, unless the screamer is in combat, absolutely nothing prevents the screams from targeting into close combat, but of course it's cool to play it as you like.

[Morrdred]

well im going to play it as they cant shoot into combats they arent a part of, which raises a question, are there any similar range attacks that can shoot into combats they arent a part of?

Last week I had a game where I fielded my Skaven against Vampire Counts and I believe I can give you an additional example:

The vampire player assumed that his Terrorgheist can scream into close combat that it isn't a part of, something that I disagreed with at first. But on my turn before this question arose I asked whether my Doom Wheel shoots at his Zombies (which were the nearest unit and engaged in close combat with my Rat Ogres) or at my Plague Monks (the nearest unit not engaged in combat). Of course the other player stated that the Doom Wheel cannot shoot in close combat it is not a part of.

I had to laugh when, just a turn later, his Terrorgheist wanted to do just the same. In my opinion the two units both use a special attack in the shooting phase and either they both can fire in ongoing close combats that they are not engaged in or they both can't.

Just a few minutes ago I asked a guy from GW's mail order about his opinion. Yeah, I know, those guys are hired to sell stuff and not to know the rules, but at least he looked everything up in the books. In his opinion, both the Terrorgheist and the Doom Wheel can fire into close combats (they are not a part of, bla bla, you know the sermon) and the Doom Wheel hits the closest unit as stated, so normally it wouldn't have to roll which side of combat it hits.

I for myself will from now on zzzapp into close combat and grant the Terrorgheist the same ability. Apart from all the discussing, the Terrorgeist is a lame duck in close combat and his big ability is the scream. For me it's okay that it can use it quite effectively, because once the enemy pins the big batthing it surely crumbles to dust.

Ah, well, just for laughs it didn't manage to scream my Hell Pit Abomination to death and my big guy promptly did to it what it does to just about everything it reaches. Die-die, dead-things!

[Maoriboy007]

Last week I had a game where I fielded my Skaven against Vampire Counts and I believe I can give you an additional example:
The vampire player assumed that his Terrorgheist can scream into close combat that it isn't a part of, something that I disagreed with at first. But on my turn before this question arose I asked whether my Doom Wheel shoots at his Zombies (which were the nearest unit and engaged in close combat with my Rat Ogres) or at my Plague Monks (the nearest unit not engaged in combat). Of course the other player stated that the Doom Wheel cannot shoot in close combat it is not a part of.
I had to laugh when, just a turn later, his Terrorgheist wanted to do just the same. In my opinion the two units both use a special attack in the shooting phase and either they both can fire in ongoing close combats that they are not engaged in or they both can't.
Just a few minutes ago I asked a guy from GW's mail order about his opinion. Yeah, I know, those guys are hired to sell stuff and not to know the rules, but at least he looked everything up in the books. In his opinion, both the Terrorgheist and the Doom Wheel can fire into close combats (they are not a part of, bla bla, you know the sermon) and the Doom Wheel hits the closest unit as stated, so normally it wouldn't have to roll which side of combat it hits.
I for myself will from now on zzzapp into close combat and grant the Terrorgheist the same ability. Apart from all the discussing, the Terrorgeist is a lame duck in close combat and his big ability is the scream. For me it's okay that it can use it quite effectively, because once the enemy pins the big batthing it surely crumbles to dust.
Ah, well, just for laughs it didn't manage to scream my Hell Pit Abomination to death and my big guy promptly did to it what it does to just about everything it reaches. Die-die, dead-things!

AS a vampire player I don't disagree with you, unnless given reasonable proof otherwise then yes the Terrogheist screams into combat , and from what I can tell the doomwheel zaaps the same way. Its no fun being on the wrong side of something nasty but that goes for a bunch of stuff and GW needs to come down on the fence one way or another in the next FAQ,. Moften than not I've found scream attacks to be more of a fail. Yes they occasionally do something decent but then I've seen horses kill fully armourd vampire lords with Ward saves too...shiznee happens.

[Texhnolyze]

Can I deny the regen save during the shooting phase for a unit of trolls by hitting them with a banshee scream from within a unit with the Banner of ethernal flame ?

[Smogg]

Can I deny the regen save during the shooting phase for a unit of trolls by hitting them with a banshee scream from within a unit with the Banner of ethernal flame ?

Flaming Attacks cover shooting and close combat attacks.

Since the scream is not a shooting or a close combat attack, it would not be flaming.

[T10]

Keep an eye on the VC FAQ for any clarification on whether the screams are shooting attacks or not: there are currently lots of different opinions on the matter.

[Memnos]

Yeah. I see that the VC FAQ is not on the website, so I'm sure we'll get something. Until then, I'd probably suggest not making a big deal one way or another as Gee-Dub has a 50/50 chance of ruling any given day.