Starting a Nurgle DoC Epidemius "Tally" army....

[GenerationTerrorist]

Hi guys.
I've finally decided to take the plunge, after selling a load of OOP Grey Knigths on ebay, to start a Nurgle DoC army.
Something I have wanted to do for years but never got around to it.

First off, I have Epidemius (the Palanquin of which I was originally using as a mount for a Nurgle Lord in my WoC army), 2 units of 7 plain Plaguebearers and a Nurgle Daemon Prince. I'm awaiting for 7 bases of Nurglings and another Nurgle Prince to arrive in the post, too. I eventually hope to build the army up to 49 models/bases (7*7, Nurgle's number) purely because I like fluffy lists more than anything else.

I know that the Prince(s) are pretty key to this list working with the Tally, so I am after advice on how to equip them correctly without going stupidly overboard or making them inefficient in terms of cost for potential return.

Eventually, I want to run 3 of them, and my current idea for the setup on all of them would be:

Mark of Nurgle, Daemonic Flight, Unholy Might, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch for 205pts each. I was thinking of Iron Hide, but is the 3+ worth it when the guy has T6 and a 5++? Or, is Unholy Might not needed given that he wounds anything on 2+?

The other quick questions I would like to ask, because I've never played DoC in 40k before, are how worthwhile are Icons on your lesser Daemon units, and would it be better to go second if you had the choice?

Without getting ahead of myself, the ideal 1500pt 49-model list would be Epidemius, 4 units of 7 plain Plaguebearers, 3 Beasts, 7 Nurgling Bases, 2 units of 5 Furies and 3 Daemon Princes. Workable?

Thanks for any advice that may be forthcoming.

Cheers,
GT

[ColShaw]

Is there any shooting at all in that list? You're likely to run into trouble against vehicle lists without any reliable way to crack open moving vehicles.

[FraustyTheSnowman]

As long as you're willing to accept this is going to be a fun army first, and you don't care about winning games, I think we can make something work...but if you have asperation of tournament play, or you think it'll bother you to have two to three times as many losses as wins...you need to find something else.

On the subject of daemon princes, unholy might and noxious touch are very much wasted. The strength boost will almost never matter on infantry, and rarely matter on vehicles. You're already rolling 2d6+5. Also, the whole point of an Epi list is to jack the tally up, which will give everyone in your army noxious touch anyways. I would run the DPs (and do in my own list) with wings, mark of nurgle, iron hide, and breath. It's been my experience that small arms fire is what really takes out daemon princes, and the difference between 5++ and 3+ when you're getting hit with 30+ lasguns is significant....though iron hide is the first thing to get dropped (in my list) when points get tight. Breath is there to get the tally up. It's an amazing power, and your only ranged attack at all.

On beasts and nurglings...I've tried out both and haven't been terribly impressed with either. It's not that they're bad exactly...they just don't do much that plage bearers don't already do. The biggest advantage with beasts is they are elites, so if you play higher point games and fill up on troops you can keep going.

Furries are, in my opinion, the worst unit in the codex, doubly so for an Epi list. If running Epi, no mark of nurgle means you don't want it.

Next time I run Epi I think I'm actually going to have some nurlge marked decimators and blight drones, see how that goes, as like Col Shaw asked about, not having crap for ranged is a HUGE detriment. I took a thousand point epi list to our local store's first 40k tournament, mostly as a lark, but partially because I knew half the people there had been playing 40k for a month or less. I got totaly creamed. That's with getting the tally up to 20+ every single match. My daemon princes were the only things in the army that could catch and affect a vehicle, and so after they went down I couldn't do much more than make obscene jestures at the tanks/transports and slow and purposefully stomp on the dead bodies of people the princes had caught and ran down, but in the end it wasn't enough. Just something to think about.

If you're curious, the decimator and blight drone are both forgeworld based, though I forget which imperial armor books they come out of (each is different if I remember right).

[GenerationTerrorist]

Brilliant response, mate. Just the sort of thing I was after.
It will be an army for fun matches, as I use my BA for any tournament/competitive ones. Just wanted to try something different to Power/Terminator Armour for a change, and the Nids I started didn't really do it for me.

Might have to look into the Drones and Decimator. Not sure whether FW stuff is allowed in our group though!

Cheers,
GT

[Bonzai]

Yeah... Forge would would be awesome for an Epi army.

Decimators, Blight Drones, and Plague Hulks would bring a ton of fire power to the list, on top of the hard to kill troops.

Otherwise, focus on the princes, GUO, and lots of plague bearers. I really don't see much point in most of the other Nurgle units.

[grey knights rock]

I would put kugath in there for the ap2 large blast, and then epidemus as the other hq obviously. then I would use 3 daemon princes with the exact loadout he suggested, and fill in the rest of the points with 2 or 3, 5 man plaugebearer squads and nurglings. I am sorry but 3 wound eternal warrior power weapon weilding wounding on 2+ 13 point models(IIRC) is nothing to scoff at.

[FraustyTheSnowman]

I would be looking for a different group if they don't "allow" forgeworld, but that's a different subject for a different day

Ku Gath sounds like a good idea, but in my experience he's no where near worth his points. I know we're talking fun games, but I think he's almost to the point of playing with a handicap...which suck....
Not sure where the three wound thing is coming from Grey Knights Rock, but the full tally gets you something like: noxious touch, ignore armor, feel no pain on 3+...maybe something else. If I remember right the ignore armor thing doesn't limit itself to assault too, so in apoc games parterning up with a deathguard player would be outright scary (ap2 bolters? YES PLEASE!)
The GUO is...frustrating. I ran one for a little bit (after deciding Ku Gath wasn't worth it), to act as a bullet magnet/(semi)mobile cover save...and it worked beautifully until everyone caught on. Basically, I'd drop him front and center, within breath range of something juicy...to get that "OH MY #$%&ING GOD!" reaction from my opponent, and maybe get a couple tally marks. It's unfortunately one of those gimmicks that either doesn't work to begin with, because the opponent has enough of an understanding about the game to just avoid the slow and purposeful template weapon...or works once or twice on people real new to the game.

While I'm sculpting up my blight drones and figuring out how to make my other two decimators (effectively traded old junk for a dreadknight and daemon prince to make one and don't want to fork over the cash to build two more), I'm going to try 15ish man plague bearer squads with an icon in each, this way I can spend the first couple rounds getting into position and have the daemon princes come in more precise...up till now I've gone MSU with no icons.

[bebe]

First off stay away from Plague Hulks ... DPs are just better. Also I agree ... Decimators in particular are plain nasty. Blight Drones are a decent threat and a major distraction. Even if Epi drops in the second wave your decimators will do damage without a tally.

Epidemus - 110

Nurgle Decimator Daemon Engine - 2 Butcher cannons, MoN - 210

Nurgle Decimator Daemon Engine - 2 Butcher cannons, MoN - 210

7x Plagues - 105

7x Plagues - 105

6x Plagues - Icon - 115

6x Plagues - Icon - 115

7x Nurglings - 70

Blight Drone - 125

Blight Drone - 125

Daemon Prince, MoN, Breath of Chaos, Iron Hide, Wings - 230

Daemon Prince, MoN, Breath of Chaos, Iron Hide, Wings - 230

This is a 1750 list that is fluffy and can compete rather well against some armies. It will dismantle Necrons generally and can hurt some SM lists. It will even weather DE with decent rolls. But daemons are tricvky as you know. If Epi comes late then the list will be less potent for sure.

[Deldar]

i would drop unholy might from the princes, your a MC, your getting 2d6 armour penetration anyway and with wounding on 2+ it's not needed

[FraustyTheSnowman]

Shouldn't 7 plague bearers cost 105, not 90?

[bebe]

Indeed they should and I should not write out lists late at night. List corrected.

[GenerationTerrorist]

Again guys, thanks so much for the info. It really is appreciated.
I've fallen for the fluff, and decided to incorporate Ku'Gath as my second HQ Choice.
My brain says he probably won't be as effective for the points as a tooled up regular Greater Unclean One, but I just love his background.

Here is my initial 1500pt list. Feel free to decimate!

HQ:
- Ku'Gath
- Epidemius

TROOPS
- 3 units of 7 Plaguebearers
- 7 Nurgling Bases (these to drop with Epi for wound allocation shenanigans)

ELITES
- 1 Beast of Nurgle

HEAVY SUPPORT
- 3 Daemon Princes of Nurgle with Flight, Breath, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies

1496pts

Wave 1: Epidemius and Nurglings, Ku'Gath, Daemon Princes
Wave 2: Plaguebearers, Beast

[FraustyTheSnowman]

Looks like a very fluffy/fun list. Out of curiousity, what are you using for KuGath?

[Fawful]

I would swap some things around in you waves. If you get the second one first all your claiming troops will end up taking all the fire power of the enemy. Besides that the wave has almost no offensive abilities. I recommend the following:

Wave 1: Epidemius (you want this guy on the table asap), 1 unit of plaguebearers (in case wave 2 is first), Daemon prince 1 and 2, beast of Nurgle.

Wave 2: 2 units of plaguebearers, Daemon prince 3, nurglings (they can speed bump if necessary or if you've build up the tally they are now far more fearsome in close combat.) Ku'gath (he has a ranged attack so should be able to do something on the turn he arrives, otherwise he'll be nice to have around as an offensive measure. You could switch him around with the beast if you prefer)

This way you aren't completely crippled if the 2nd wave comes first and you have bad luck with reserves.
I'd also recommend dropping the beast since it's kind of awful and getting more nurglings instead, but that's a personal choice.

Joining nurglings with epidemius is risky since he becomes t3 against shooting in the current rules (majority toughness rule)