Daemons just got buff!

[Nurgling Chieftain]

When the points spent buying those firewarriors and the markerlight units to support them could have bought you more railguns, plasma guns, or krootwrap. ...
Generally when you need a 2nd unit to make the first any good. That first unit does indeed "suck balls".

What are you even talking about? You have Fire Warriors, period, like it or not. You bought some form of markerlights primarily to support your broadsides. Except, oops, railguns are terrible against daemons (and plasma guns/missile pods aren't much better and kroot can't use them). So, you use them with the fire warriors.

Why were you paying for +1 strength on Daemon Princes?

So they can wound MEQ's on 2+, presumably.

[madden]

And to make DP's semi good at vehicles (looking at you dreads) plus not everone uses bolt's (I don't use any tzeench stuff) make more fun (for me).

[youngsamwise]

Well I can tell you the change to FNP is 5+ but you get it to anything that dose not cause instant death. Ruins are still 4+ but Forrest are 5+ cover

If rumors are to be believed, we are losing the ability to go to ground as well, something plague bearers are prone to doing.

Before: In cover 3+ G2G and then a 4+ vs. S9- or AP3+.
Now: 5+ (4+ on rare occasion) and then a 5+ vs S9-.

Not sure this is a great tradeoff.

[theDarkGeneral]

Should be interesting to see if the FAQ Bloodcrushers to be heavy infantry or even cavalry type...

[TrangleC]

I think the by far biggest effect on Daemons will have how allying them with CSM will work.
I'm really curious about that.
After all, Daemons have some of the most powerful units and characters in the game. Only the wacky deployment rule balances/nerfs them down to a sub par army.
What if you can bypass that at least partially by allying them with CSM?

Not that I'm saying that's likely. The way I know GW they will probably find a way to prevent anything too exiting there, no matter how retarded and far-fetched it will be, like having CSM Icons not work for Daemons or something like that.
I'm still curious.

[Brother Muninn]

Well I can tell you the change to FNP is 5+ but you get it to anything that dose not cause instant death.

How would that work for daemons with eternal warrior, since nothing causes instant death for us?

[TrangleC]

How would that work for daemons with eternal warrior, since nothing causes instant death for us?

Take a look into the rules before asking such questions, please.
The FNP rule specifically says that it can not be used to avert Instant Death even if the target is an Eternal Warrior.

There is no reason to expect that to change with the next rulebook, at least not in a way that suddenly exempts Daemons.

[Rated_lexxx]

If rumors are to be believed, we are losing the ability to go to ground as well, something plague bearers are prone to doing.

Before: In cover 3+ G2G and then a 4+ vs. S9- or AP3+.
Now: 5+ (4+ on rare occasion) and then a 5+ vs S9-.

Not sure this is a great tradeoff.

Going to ground is not going to be gone. In the WD they mention going to ground in the battle reports.

Did I get the WD early or something. I thought everyone had it by now

[Azazel]

A few months ago there was talk of being able to Assault the same turn you Deepstruck into the game. Not sure if thats still true.

Personally I can't wait to use a unit of Chaos Terminators and Obliterators as a Detachment for my Daemons.

[druchii]

Right now, I am most concerned that we aren't going to have a troop choice worth taking. If cover and FNP both get nerfed as rumored, the plaguebearers suffer (as do nurglings.) If hellblades get nerfed and snap fire works as rumored, the bloodletters suffer. Daemonettes suffer from snapfire as well, but also lose the one thing that made them stand out before - extra charge range from fleet. And horrors were always overpriced, but not being able to put a bolt in the front of the unit because of allocation will suck, especially if they are getting double-tapped at 24" range.

I am most curious what the new beast/cavalry rules will be if there are random charge ranges. Plenty of army-wide rules could be affected with deepstrike foremost among them. Followed by eternal warrior, punching flyers, no retreat wounds, auto-lock in combat after charging a vehicle. I definitely hope to see severe penalties for psyker-fail though since so many other codexes are getting psychic buffs.

But mainly, I am worried we are going to be stuck with fateweaver in every list just to have a chance at surviving long enough to assault.

If the WD article is anything to go buy we'll still have great troops.

The only troops we've ever had, in my opinion.

Plague bearers.

FNP is 5, but not against wounds that cause ID.

Demon players can also purchase Aegis defense lines as a part of their army. Defense lines give units who go to ground behind them a better cover save. I'll let you do a happy dance to your self.

Fleet and jump infantry seem to allow a reroll of the random charge distance, so those sorts of units will not be more reliable (and allow you to gamble on longer charge ranges...).

All of our winged monsters being able to function pretty much like a necron overlord on a barge will be of GREAT value to us, especially at double their normal move range.

Not to mention if the allies rules work like they appear to. Imagine Thousand Sons backed up by Fateweaver...

d

[Brother Muninn]

I just saw this on Faeit 212 from MadCowCrazy at Heresy Online

"In the Chaos Daemons army everything causes Fear, which is nicely representative of their horror. But thats not nearly as exciting as the Flying Monstrous Creature rules. These allow my Bloodthrister and Daemon Princes to soar up to 24" across the tabletop, ignoring all but the most dedicated anti-aircraft weapons as they get ready to assault the puny mortals below."

I'm curious to see how this'll play out in the new rule book.

[Fawful]

I'm rather interested in what this supposed fear rule will do. If it forces enemies to take a ld test and making them run if they failed would be quite bad for us. If it reduced weapon skill to one like it does in fantasy it would be a nice buff, but most of the time it wouldn't do much.

On another Has anyone seen/heard anything on changes in the to hit chart for close combat? I liked the one from the leak edition as it makes ws 10 far more meaningful. It added to hit rolls of 2+ and 6+.

[Replicant253]

Also shooting just got upgraded. Bolters are going to be able to pepper us at 24". Don't expect anything short of plaguebearers to be there after a couple of volleys of fire. Tau fire warriors just becaume extra pimpy with a side of awesome sause. 10 can fire 20 STR 5 shots at 30" while being BS5 with marker lights.
.

Unless i am reading the rumours wrong this is incorrect. New rapid fire rules mean you can move and still fire once up to your maximum range. So that would be 10 shots at 30 inches and 20 at 15 inches irrespective of whether they have moved or not.

[Brother Muninn]

So if I'm reading the latest Hull Points rules stuff on Faeit 212 correctly, it sounds like a hull point is lost whenever there's a glancing hit.

If this is the case then Flamers (and anything else with Breath of Chaos) become invaluable for tank popping. Since they glance vehicles on 4+, A squad of six Flamers would stand a reasonable chance of destroying a Land Raider or Monolith in a single attack.

~Muninn

[-DE-]

Flamers will be as useless as they are now - that squad costs nearly as much as a LR, deal only 3 glances on average which is not enough to wreck a LR, and land in range only on a 5+. And even assuming they kill that one vehicle, they get then blown off the board. Oh, and they take up an Elites slot. Fiends are still better and they now kill vehicles much more reliably than before (hit on 3+ at worst).

Let's recap:

+ daemons now cause Fear, whatever it does. Still, it's a free boost.

- Slaanesh demons are nerfed due to effectively losing Fleet (no extra D6" anymore!).

- cavalry and beasts... are up in the air, but the latter lose out on Fleet.

+ Chariots of Tzeentch get a boost in speed (being jetbikes).

+ Screamers get so much better thanks to the speed boost and easily hit vehicles. Melta bombs are possibly going to be AP1 which is another plus. Maybe.

++ LoC, BT, and winged DP get a boost against pretty much everything. Vectored Strikes, can Fly to avoid CC/shooting, extra hits on charge for being MC... cool beans.

- cover is now pointless since it's the same as daemons worst INV (unless it's ruins).

+/- Feel no Pain gets kind of nerfed - worse against torrents, better against PW's and AP 2-.

- being CC specialists, they'll suffer extra casualties due to overwatch and can't hit flyers for crap (surely nothing will become AA and can't hit them in CC).

+ it's now easier to kill vehicles in melee. Yay! Even MC's with their A halved for double S deal more damage against fast-moving vehicles, no longer hitting on 6+ but 3+.

- multiassaults get nerfed big time which is not good for a CC army.

- if Hellblades are not AP 2, 'letters and 'crushers become helpless against Termies. Not cool.

- if Fearless units can't voluntarily break off from combat, Crushers are still going to be locked by Dreads.

+/- being assault grenades, Aura and Cloud of Flies might become throwable. I suppose it will be FAQ'ed otherwise, but if not, hilarious.

+ Look Out Sir! boosts Masque but not by much. It'd be silly if she could Snapshot Pavane, though

- rapid fire is improved which means more casualties for daemons from marines and whatnot. Moreover, Snapshot means many more shots coming their way. Not cool.

+ Furies get better like all jumpers. Doesn't mean much, but still.

+ lastly, DS-ing is a bit safer now I believe.

Overall we get better in CC but suffer more damage from shooting. MC's get better, Fleet gets worse, Jetbikes get better, Bloodnouns get worse (if Hellblades are power swords and AP3).

[Brother Muninn]

Fiends are still better and they now kill vehicles much more reliably than before (hit on 3+ at worst).

From what I've read, Fiends are benefiting from a few more things now.

According to Faeit 212, Beasts can now go up levels of terrain and straight up ignore difficult terrain for purposes of assault. Another big one is that rending attacks are now AP2, so 6's will be able to cut down termis, & be even more effective against tanks if they can penetrate (since AP2 adds +1 to the pen rolls)

This will probably make them the go-to elite pick until things change.

[Lord Squidar]

I was thinking, we daemons don't have anything that could potentially be an AA weapon, except maybe some special rules for screamers. That can't be fixed in an FAQ.

BUT

What if the tongue attack on the soul grinder became AA =) Like some giant daemonic frog tongue flicking out to pull in puny mortal fliers like flies. Would be epic and fitting I think

[Brother Muninn]

I imagine the Anti Air for Daemons will have to be handled with MCs, and with Vector Strike.

Against Vehicles it does 1d3+1 hits at strength against side armor. So a Thirster vector striking a Valkyrie should pull off 1-2 HP per attack.

[Cheeslord]

I imagine the Anti Air for Daemons will have to be handled with MCs, and with Vector Strike.

Against Vehicles it does 1d3+1 hits at strength against side armor. So a Thirster vector striking a Valkyrie should pull off 1-2 HP per attack.

Thats doesn't sound like a very effective strategem. Tying up 1 greater daemon for 2 rounds to handle enemy air support leaves the rest of the army outnumbered.

No, I don't see any alternatives...

Mark.

[Azazel]

We'll probably have to take a Fortification with an AA gun attached, and then ally some CSM with their new flyer that will be out with the new codex.

Ideally though they'd just give MCs who move over 12" the ability to hit Zooming Flyers with their normal BS instead of BS 1.