Daemons just got buff!

[youngsamwise]

We'll probably have to take a Fortification with an AA gun attached, and then ally some CSM with their new flyer that will be out with the new codex.

Ideally though they'd just give MCs who move over 12" the ability to hit Zooming Flyers with their normal BS instead of BS 1.

This kind of defeats the entire reason I chose to run Daemons - I don't want marines and tanks in my army.

If the WD article is anything to go buy we'll still have great troops.

The only troops we've ever had, in my opinion.

Plague bearers.

FNP is 5, but not against wounds that cause ID.

Demon players can also purchase Aegis defense lines as a part of their army. Defense lines give units who go to ground behind them a better cover save. I'll let you do a happy dance to your self.

I now need to purchase an Aegis Defense line in order to give my plaguebearers the 4+ cover I had before, thereby making them more expensive. And then get a 5+ FNP in all situations except S10 instead of a 4+ FNP in all situations except AP1/AP2/S10. Even if FNP is - at best - a wash, I still need to pay for my cover save making them less effective pt for pt. And they can't carry an icon as well as they used to. I realize everyone is in the same position, but then most people have troops capable of doing something other "sit there and don't die" like our plaguebearers. Happy Dance is not forthcoming.

[IAMNOTHERE]

Arn't daemon immune to instant death?

[Azazel]

This kind of defeats the entire reason I chose to run Daemons - I don't want marines and tanks in my army.

Me neither thats why it worries me.

And yes all Daemons from the Chaos Daemons Codex are immune to Instant Death.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Note that being immune to instant death does not allow them to take FNP against instant death.

[youngsamwise]

Note that being immune to instant death does not allow them to take FNP against instant death.

Further note the grey knights can still remove them from play on an unsaved wound. If anything should happen to lower their leadership a little bit (like say a psyker battle squad) when a grey knight punches them, it doesn't look good for the daemon... Fortunately, they fixed that problem in the new Grey Knights codex by making sure that grey knights don't have access to units in the IG codex...oh wait...

Well, on the bright side it should be really unlikely that we see PBS's in ally lists with GK. I mean who would want PBS's nowadays? Not like their are a ton of new psychic powers out there or severe penalties for failing tests!

[IAMNOTHERE]

Note that being immune to instant death does not allow them to take FNP against instant death.

Not sure I get what you said, being immune to instant death would allow you to take fnp from things that would ordinarily cause instant death and deny a fnp save.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Except that's totally not true in 5th edition or prior. Dunno about 6th edition yet, but I haven't heard anything about them making eternal warrior allow FNP to work against instant death.

[IAMNOTHERE]

I think that's my point; being immune to ID should include things like double toughness.

[druchii]

This kind of defeats the entire reason I chose to run Daemons - I don't want marines and tanks in my army.



I now need to purchase an Aegis Defense line in order to give my plaguebearers the 4+ cover I had before, thereby making them more expensive. And then get a 5+ FNP in all situations except S10 instead of a 4+ FNP in all situations except AP1/AP2/S10. Even if FNP is - at best - a wash, I still need to pay for my cover save making them less effective pt for pt. And they can't carry an icon as well as they used to. I realize everyone is in the same position, but then most people have troops capable of doing something other "sit there and don't die" like our plaguebearers. Happy Dance is not forthcoming.

You're not looking at it properly. You're essentially buying a 2+ cover save for your plague bearers. Their FNP now also functions in close combat against power weapons and MCs. And usually no one ever shoots NON ap1/2/s10 stuff at my PBs, so in 2/3rds of thost instances my PBs are MUCH better. AND with a buyable 2+ cover (hell yes!) they're insanely better in ALL instances.

Icons are actually MORE survivable now. Before a lucky wound could slip through on a 5 man squad and kill the icon, now, you have to fail all five saves/FNPs for that icon to die (you aren't putting it in the front, are you?!), and why the heck is there an icon in the squad anyway?! Not to mention the possible buffs an icon might carry in 6th.

The sky is not falling. Although seeing you dance with the bum knee would be funny.

I think that's my point; being immune to ID should include things like double toughness.

That might be your point, but SHOULD is not DOES.

d

[Hashulaman]

Yea, that will have to be FAQ'd, until then I will probably say I can't take FnP. I already read the allies section and being Battle Brothers with CSM(which I play) they can be affected by each others abilities, such as Kairos' re roll saves(tzeentch terminators got more powerful) and Epidemius' abilites affect all Nurgle units Friend or Foe, so you have (until FAQ'd) Plague Marine allies with FnP on a 3+ wounding on a 2 up with no armor saves once his tally reaches max. I think that's enough in my favor as is.

[-DE-]

So:

- our chariots are actually not chariots

- we got no way to blow flyers out of the sky except through Flying MC's vectored strikes.

- hellblades are power swords which coupled with changes to wound allocation means there's no point to Crushers anymore. As Fiends got better, it's going to be max Fiends all the time. Bloodletters are now a dead entry too.

- Epidemius with allied Typhus and Plague Marines might be brutal. Nurgle bikers are T6, virtually immune to ID, and new wound allocation means they're never losing that icon. CSM with allied Epidemius are better, but we're talking CD army, so... At least we can get 3 Nurgle DP's. Oh, and Tally increases FNP by 2 pips now instead of just 1.

- Fear doesn't work against marines (figured) and Fearless units. Which means pretty much anyone that would matter.

[druchii]

Fearless also cannot go to ground willingly. Wop Wop.

Also don't forget all armies have access to skyfiring weapons through the use of fortifications. Not idea but worthwhile anyway. Also, we CAN get FIVE flying MCs...so that shouldn't be such an issue knocking fliers out of the sky. Most side armor is 11-12, which means a vector strike will strip one HP usually.

Not so bad, considering we're still hit on the same number the fliers are.

d

ps. Empidemius is about to become veeeery popular with a very nurgly power armored crowd.

[Aryllon]

Re: the whole 'not losing your icon' thing... you guys might want to give snipers and ICs a wide berth...

[madden]

And flying MC's can get knocked out of the sky with just being hit they then get a s9 wound with only invuns so nit so good.

[youngsamwise]

You're not looking at it properly. You're essentially buying a 2+ cover save for your plague bearers. Their FNP now also functions in close combat against power weapons and MCs. And usually no one ever shoots NON ap1/2/s10 stuff at my PBs, so in 2/3rds of thost instances my PBs are MUCH better. AND with a buyable 2+ cover (hell yes!) they're insanely better in ALL instances.

How are you getting a 2+ cover??? No going to ground for fearless units. So i get my standard 3+ cover for more points. Additionally, they are slow and purposeful so they cannot run in the shooting phase. So now I can't get into cover as easily and my FNP is on a 5+. Guess that's good vs plasma cannons at AP2 but then the plaguebearers will be sitting in a nice circle for them to roast all the easier.

My plaguebearers get hit with non AP1/2 stuff all the time like missle launchers, assault cannons and autocannons. Most people don't point lascannons at them.

Icons are actually MORE survivable now. Before a lucky wound could slip through on a 5 man squad and kill the icon, now, you have to fail all five saves/FNPs for that icon to die (you aren't putting it in the front, are you?!), and why the heck is there an icon in the squad anyway?! Not to mention the possible buffs an icon might carry in 6th.

Snipers and close combat removal make them less surviable. And I run icons in plaguebearers because I don't run fatecrusher which has the only other unit worth putting in an icon, and I do run units larger than five when I run plaguebearers so a lucky wound getting through was rare. And yes, I may have put the icon in the front of the unit in order to guide deepstriking reserves where I want them. Not anymore of course.

The sky is not falling. Although seeing you dance with the bum knee would be funny.

meh, I couldn't dance before. Sky didn't fall on daemons, but they got some serious nerfs and little in the way of buffs. Why can a Herald of Nurgle in the CSM codex join plaguemarines but not plaguebearers (Typhus) and why can a Herald of Nurgle in the CD codex can join plaguebearers but not plaguemarines? I was looking forward to ally rules so I could take CSM princes right until I learned they aren't Flying monstrous creatures and a Tzeentch prince can no longer use two psychic shooting attacks.

Compound this with the fact that the best army in fifth (GK) now has preferred enemy on its storm bolters and psycannons vs. daemons? And they still can run storm ravens that my flying princes can't hurt with a vector strike. Now my bloodthirster doesn't get his 2++ save because they will just hit him with grenades, and no longer at init6 (with the halberds) because of the furious charge nerf. But that's okay cause he is so good at killing land raiders I will always include him...oh wait...

The sky did fall on my tyranid army though. My list went from poor/gimmicky to literally illegal to play.

[Brother Ranz]

Looking at the FAQ, every psyker in the game got knocked down in levels in their FAQ, except Daemons. Did I miss something? If Daemons are going to be the primary high level casters, that does make sense.

[Azazel]

Daemons don't have Psykers (as far as the game mechanics go). Anything that is like a Psychic Power in the Daemons Codex is actually just a ranged weapon.