2000pt Empire Knight Heavy All Comers tournament list

[Gaius Marius]

Fantasy Army: Empire

Hello Folks,

Here is my current 2000pt configuration. I have a couple of questions about tweaks I could make

Lords:
138pts - General of the empire with full Knight Kit (1+ save and a Lance) - Leads Reiksguard 1

225pts - Level 4 Heavens Wizard with a dispel scroll - Hangs with Infantry - Detach or parent

Heroes:
116pts - BSB with full Knight Kit (1+ save and a Lance) - Leads Reiksguard 2

98pts - Mounted Warrior Priest with a Great Weapon & a Dragon Helm - Leads Inner Circle Knights

65pts - Engineer on foot - near Volley Gun

Core:
310pts - 40 Swordsmen (5x8) with full command
35pts - 5 Archer detachment
30pts - 5 Spearmen detachment

310pts - 11 Innercircle Knights (2x6) with Gleaming pendant

Special:
170pts - 5 Reiksguard Knights (2x3) with Champion and Standard and Standard of Discipline

145pts - 5 Reiksguard Knights (2x3) with Champion

120pts - 1 Cannon

118pts - 6 pistoliers with musician

Rare:
120pts - Hellblaster Volley Gun

The theory is that I deploy a unit of Reiksguard on either side of the 40 Swordsmen, like this

RGR SSSSS RBR
RRR SSSSS RRR
___ SSSSS

The one unit of Inner Circle gets deployed last a flank, the Hellblaster goes on the other flank. The pistoliers deploy in the center, where they can use the 12" move to redeploy left or right depending. The Wizard usually doesn't need much by way of line of sight, so can hide in a detachment behind the line.

The Reiksguard knight units are stubborn on 3d6 leadership tests - re-rollable, so can charge right into most front line units, and just get stuck. Then the flanking Inner circle comes in to flank charge, while the swordsmen sort of charge in as well later to provide 8 ranks and hopefully break steadfast.
The cannon kills big stuff, the Hellblaster and Engineer thin out dangerous units, and the pistoliers help screw up the enemies charge dynamic. The 5 man detachments can either screen the war-machines, hide, or heroically run out and 'meet' fanatics and the like.

The couple of times I have tried it, the setup works.

I could drop the General of the Empire down to a Hero, and save 47pts for other toys, and there are a few other little changes I can make while still keeping the concept.

I am looking for suggestions and criticism.
Thanks ~ Gaius Marius

[EcoWarrior]

If your taking the reiksguard knights take a big unit of 10 for survivability + you save the points from the champion, if you wanted to save a few more points you could drop 1 so you have x9 + the warrior preist but that is only if your trying to fit more stuff into the list. Knights dont work without the rerolls because they have such few attacks.
Pistoliers seem nice but think about it, 8" shooting range unless your at 4" which is a bit to close for comfort your hitting on 5's most of the time. Take outriders instead to shoot off chaff, you get more shots, better range, set them up 1" further away than the biggest charge range but within 24" to shot on the first turn, they will do alot better then pistoliers. Also you only need 5 of them.
I would set the cannon and the hellblasters both by the engineer and use your engineer on the cannon most of the time because no1 will go in range of that hellblaster while your engineer is there, use it as area denial more than anything.
You really dont need 2 units of knights, i mean for that price you can get 62 spearmen which will be steadfast and hold a unit up for alot of time. Even if you dont take spearmen i would definatly get more detachments rather than 11 knights and bsb. You need your bsb by the detachments for the rerolls because of the low leadership.
Also change the 5 spearmen for 5 archers; 2 units of 5 will serve you well for redirecting.

[Gaius Marius]

Interesting points, thank you.
The outrider for pistolier exchange makes sense, & I will try it out when I get my outriders finished. They play different roles, but the outriders would certainly be a firepower improvement.
I tried the 1 unit of Reiksguard, with a Warrior priest to boost it. What I am trying with the small Reiksguard units is to have 2 stubborn and 1 steadfast unit up the middle to anvil anything they run into. Except for strength 6 infantry like Ogres or White Lions, the Survivability of the Knights is crazy, and just one knight remaining is a stubborn anvil. In terms of super killing power you are quite right about the warrior priest with a bigger unit instead. I think I was trying to re-capture a little of the MSU vibe or past editions. (I've been playing since 4th)
Also, when I get another five Kislevite Kossars painted I will switch out the spears for archers. Good point.

[EcoWarrior]

If the knights work for you in units of 5 i say go for it but one bad leadership roll and youve lost the best part of 160 points. With empire especially i wouldent leave anything to chance like that. The reason i say get rid of one of the units of knights is because you only really have 2 blocks of units in that list, and then a few 5man units. The problem is you will be easily out manouvered by alot of armies/all armies that have more units than you. I personally love swordsmen they last alot longer than any other detachment unit but that is personaly preference aswell, i just dont think 1 block of infantry will do your army justice, what about when you roll on a mission were you need to hold a building or something? and that infantry block is tied up and your knights cant hold it, then what do you do ?

If you wanted to be gay with knights just take the x2 units of 5 with a musician and conga line them, better to have the musician imo then chamion because you can reform if need be. conga line is 1x5 setup with 1 command model at the front if any1 didnt know. so its minimal damage to the unit

[Gaius Marius]

I don't know what I do next in a situation where I am out of position on the tower capture mission. I used to take 20 core flagellants for just that reason, but... My army changed with the transition to 8th edition, and the combo I used then was good enough to get me to Throne of Skulls, and to do well there is no longer legal at 2000pts. The new army book you see, kind of gutted my older approach. Fair enough, every book change and edition change has done that. So roll with the punches.
What I like about the small units is that as long as I keep the 3 units - Reiksguard x2 and the Swordsmen with 12" of the BSB and General (easier than it sounds when deployed - Knights - Swordsmen - Knights) I am making stubborn leadership tests on 3d6 on Leadership 10 with a re-roll. Until they kill the heroes that is. Since I only really need to hold for 1 or 2 turns while the flanking unit mashes in, it has worked so far... fingers crossed. It is certainly more finesse based than a typical (or my typical) Empire list. My hope is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, like a good Wood Elf list.
So your suggestions for tinkering with those parts is welcome.

[EcoWarrior]

flagellants do suck now hmm. Have you tried using the conga line before ? Its fround upon but it works ridiculously well on stubborn/unbreakable. I say use it if your going just to win but dont use it if you want friends :P.
I still think there are cheaper units for the job that you want the units of 5 to do. You want them to hold stuff up. Why not redirect stuff? it works just as well if your only taking 5 and a hell of alot cheaper if they are archers which are absoloutly perfect for the job. With a unit of 5 witht he bsb you only have to lose 1 model before they can start picking him out of the unit i belive. i quote from the rule book "cannot hit a character in a combined unit if there are five or more rank and file models of the same troop type", Do you really wanna risk it. Also it says rank and file of 5 so having 2x3 would also make him vulnerable. If i could suggest you to do anything it would be to change that plan around more than anything.

[Gaius Marius]

To your last point first. 5 rank and files only matters for taking a look out sir. It means 5 rank and file models and is not a reference to ranks of 5 in any way. It will be hard for characters to avoid cannon balls and the like once I lose a knight. Ordinary shooting just gets distributed at random after there aren't 5 rank and file models left, so the characters can't be targeted, they just become eligible to be hit like all the other models.

I will keep in mind more re-directors in future. That might serve my purposes better. But the key thing about using Knight's to hold up units instead of flagellants or state troops, is that when you flanking unit does come in to play, you don't give up combat resolution from casualties. I used a large bus of spearmen to try and hold the enemy. It would often be steadfast and stick around, but when a turn or so later a second unit came to help out, I would lose so many troops in combat, that the killing my assistance unit provided was swamped by my own guys dying in combat.
Also, the conga line is hilarious once. After that you are just being a git.
Cheers.

[mike20]

Finding some space for Luther Huss instead of a regular priest could make give you an extra stubborn unit, plus he can be quite useful with his D3 additional stats