House Rules for Fighter Waves in BFG

[BDJ]

In my opinion, most of the rules governing Attack Ordnance are rather 'one dimensional' in BFG, particularly when it comes to Fighter Waves and escort-Fighters. Now granted, BFG is all about the "Big Ships", but the "Big Ship" Carriers pay a heavy price for their Launch Bays, surrendering precious armament for the launch capabilities. So there should be some rules in-place that allow this launch capability to have some real meaning/effect on game play. Let's face it; allowing a single fighter squadron to "eliminate" a wave of four fighters and four bombers is, IMHO, simply ridiculous!

So, for the sake of logic and equity, our group has developed and play tested the following House Rules concerning the "Small Ship" dog-fighting aspect of BFG.

Dogfight House Rules

Fighter vs Fighter - One-on-one encounters. Remove fighters one-for-one (attacking and defending). Example: A single fighter squadron attacks a fighter wave of six fighters. The single squadron is removed and one fighter from the wave is removed. The fighter wave continues on with five fighters.

Fighter vs Bombers/non-Fighter Attack Craft escorted by Fighters - Resolve fighter vs fighter combat first. Fighters one-on-one verses fighters. Remove fighters one-for-one (attacking and defending). If all fighter escorts are removed, and the attacker has at least one fighter remaining, all bombers/non-Fighter Attack Craft are 'scattered' and removed from play; all attacking fighters return to base for refueling and are removed from play.

Fighter vs non-fighter Attack Craft - The non-fighter Attack Craft is dispersed, scattered or destroyed and the fighters return to base for refueling. Remove all fighters and all non-fighter attack craft.

Bombers escorted by Fighters vs Torpedo Salvo - One fighter (automatically) disengages from the wave and destroys the salvo. Remove one fighter and all torpedoes.

Fighter/Fighter Wave vs Torpedo Salvo - A single fighter destroys the salvo. Remove one fighter and all torpedoes.

Bombers vs Torpedo salvo - The salvo detonates and destroys all bombers. Remove all bombers and all torpedoes.

In all of these "dog fight" situations, Resilience Saves can still be made for 'destroyed' and/or 'returning to refuel' Resilent Ordnance to keep them 'in-play'.

Just my 2c worth.

BDJ

[horizon]

heh, you should read the basic rules again. 1 fighter does not eliminate a wave of four fighters or bombers. one fighter removes one enemy ac marker.
one fighter does eliminate a complete torpedo wave though.

[andrewchristlieb]

Ya thats the basic rules with the addition of unescorted waves being completly removed by 1 fighter or torp... Seems a bit overpowered on the one hand, but on the other hand it presents the first argument for having fighters in a wave that makes good sense. The added functionalty of the torps seems like a good idea too.... Hum.

[BDJ]

heh, you should read the basic rules again. 1 fighter does not eliminate a wave of four fighters or bombers. one fighter removes one enemy ac marker.
one fighter does eliminate a complete torpedo wave though.

Perhaps, perhaps not. As far as I am aware, the only reference that is used from BFG Basic to justify a single fighter (or a fighter wave) removing an entire Torpedo salvo is found on page 29, and the statement itself is rather 'nebulous'. But I guess you could consider torpedoes as "defenders'?

Fighter Rules

Vs Ordnance Markers. The defenders are scattered or destroyed in the fighting. The victorious fighters return to their mother ship for rearming and refueling. Remove both the defending and attacking markers from play.

This 'destroy all torpedoes' interpretation by a single fighter of fighter wave (which I do agree with as 'logical') is further confused in the Torpedo section of BSG Basic.

Premature Detonation

An entire salvo of torpedoes can be triggered prematurely by the following circumstances:

• On a D6 roll of 6 if it moves through any Blast markers.
• If the salvo is fired upon by direct fire weapons and any hits are scored.
• If it hits another Torpedo marker

I find the absence of fighter detonation of an entire salvo in this list quite "curious".

If BFG Basic contains a direct reference to a single fighter being able to destroy an entire salvo, please quote it and provide the page reference for me. I would be in your debt.


The silence of BSG Basic concerning Fighter Vs Fighter combat mechanics is deafening. If I have missed a reference to these 'mechanics' in BSG Basic, perhaps an example, please quote it and provide the page number where I can find it. That is, unless the page 29 reference quoted above is used, and that becomes somewhat problematic if it is also applied to an entire missile salvo. Then the statement "Remove both the defending and attacking markers from play" means all markers; the entire wave or salvo, whether attacking or defending.

But these are really mute points now. The house rules clarify for our group how to conduct Ordnance dogfights and it works for us.

However, I am keenly interested in the references from BSG Basic that apparently I have missed concerning these issues and their clarifications. Would you be so kind as to provide them to me?

Thanks,

BDJ

[andrewchristlieb]

You quoted it. A fighter marker removes any other ordnance marker.

A salvo of torpedoes is one marker even if its so large that it takes multuple markers in vr 1.0 and its a non issue now as all salvos are represented by a single 3 wide marker now, pg 28 bbb "the higher the strength, the more torpedoes there are in a salvo and the larger the marker placed to represent the salvo.", one ordnace marker for one fighter marker to destroy.

A fighter/ bomber/ assault boat squadron is represented by one marker, pg29 bbb "each squadron is represented by a single marker", so one ordnance marker for one fighter to destroy. Fighters are included in this group so... guess that explains how fighters work.

And finally waves. A wave is a group of individual markers launched togather, pg 30 bbb "to show a wave place the attack craft markets so theyre touching and keep them together as they move.", so one wave for example with four markers attacked by a fighter marker would be reduced by one marker, pg29 bbb the fighter vs ordnance markers quote, the only limit to this is if there are any fighters in the wave, pg30 bbb "if enemy fighters/turrets attack a wave they must remove any fighter squadrons before moving onto the bigger ships."

Im not trying to get you worked up, you have some really intersting ideas that I like and i can totally understand how this can be confusing which is why im a big supporter for scrapping the ordnance rules and starting over from the ground up.

[Vaaish]

Perhaps, perhaps not. As far as I am aware, the only reference that is used from BFG Basic to justify a single fighter (or a fighter wave) removing an entire Torpedo salvo is found on page 29, and the statement itself is rather 'nebulous'. But I guess you could consider torpedoes as "defenders'?

This isn't an argument you will win. It's been had many multiple times over but for the sake of being thorough, here is how it works. Unfortunately it's a combination of the effects of several rules that leads to the entire torpedo salvo being destroyed and not a single statement. The effect isn't caused by the premature detonation rules, but rather by the definition of a torpedo marker and the interaction of individual ordinance marker attacks that results in the salvo being removed.

p27 states that markers attack as soon as they come into contact with a ships base or another marker.

p28 states there are two types of ordnance markers, Torpedoes and Attack Craft. Attack craft are then broken down into sub categories.

p29 states that on contact the fighter maker and the marker they came into contact with is removed.

p30 states that a wave is shown by placing friendly markers in contact with each other and keep them that way as you move.

These are the relevant sections for understanding how fighters remove an entire torpedo salvo yet only remove a single marker from a wave. Let me explain. For example a single fighter marker comes in contact with a wave of four bombers. By the rules, the attack is resolved as soon as the markers touch so we look at the rules for the fighter which says both the attacking (the fighter marker) and the defending (the bomber in contact with the fighter) markers are removed. With both removed, the attacking fighter is no longer touching any markers from the wave and no further attacks can be made. The end result is the bomber wave is reduced to three bombers.

Now, with this in mind, lets look at the interaction of fighters and other fighters. When two opposing fighters touch, the attack is resolved immediately as is usual and you look at the effects listed in the fighter entry. Based on p.28, Fighters are Ordinance markers of the Attack Craft subcategory. Since both fighters are ordnance markers (being a fighter doesn't make it less of an attack craft which doesn't make it less of an ordnance marker), we remove both markers from play.

Last of all is the interaction between Torpedoes and Fighters. As the strength of an attack craft wave grows you add additional markers to the wave so that a s4 bomber wave has four markers, a s5 wave has five markers, and so forth. Torpedoes are different. Under the original 1.5 rules, p28 states that "the higher the strength, the more torpedoes there are in a salvo and the larger the marker placed." Following our example, this means that a s4 torpedo salvo is one marker, not four, and a s5 salvo is still just one marker rather than five. It's a bit counter intuitive when you get past s6 and you have to physically place two markers in contact to represent the strength yet it acts like a single marker.

Since the torpedo salvo, regardless of strength, is still just ONE marker, a fighter marker coming in to contact with a s4 torpedo salvo removes both itself and the torpedo marker it is in contact with as per the fighter rules on p.29. Likewise, the same fighter contacting a s36 torpedo marker removes the entire salvo because it is still just one torpedo marker. Basically the combination of these rules can be simplified into the statement that a single ordnance marker will only remove one other marker unless it is resilient. Just think of the removal being based on the number of physical markers present rather than the strength value represented by those markers.

The relationship of one marker to one marker is a bit more clear under the 2010 FAQ where the variable width torpedo marker is replaced by a single fixed size marker with the strength marked using dice.

[horizon]

Yup, like he says.

[BDJ]

andrewchristlieb and Vaaish,

Thank you both so much for replying to my post with references from BSG Basic and well-thought-out explanations. Unfortunately, the original rules lack the clarity that you both have provided to me.

I am indeed in your debt.

Thanks.

BDJ

[andrewchristlieb]

No problem, like I said the original rules were very poorly written and have caused a lot of confusion. Unfortunately every time a new update or an addition to the rules has been added those have also been poorly thought out and or written which has only added to the confusion.

Back to your original post tho, are there any other thoughts on the changes proposed?

As I said previously the ability of a single fighter marker to take out an entire unescorted wave seems like it could be a bit overpowered, but on the other hand this presents a very good reason to include fighters in your waves.

The ability of torpedoes to destroy bomber/assault boats is also very interesting and would add a great tactical ability, especially to the torp escorts.

[BDJ]

No problem, like I said the original rules were very poorly written and have caused a lot of confusion. Unfortunately every time a new update or an addition to the rules has been added those have also been poorly thought out and or written which has only added to the confusion

.

I think most players, including myself, agree with you on the 'poor authorship presentation' of Ordnance mechanics.

Back to your original post tho, are there any other thoughts on the changes proposed?

As I said previously the ability of a single fighter marker to take out an entire unescorted wave seems like it could be a bit overpowered, but on the other hand this presents a very good reason to include fighters in your waves.

Now that I understand the Marker-on-Marker Ordnance mechanics as written in BSG Basic, it does seem a-bit overpowered. We may change this to the Marker vs Marker concept. Don't know yet. However, consider that the single fighter simply "disperses" or "scatters" the bomber wave so that they can no longer continue their mission and must return-to-base to refuel.

The ability of torpedoes to destroy bomber/assault boats is also very interesting and would add a great tactical ability, especially to the torp escorts.

Granted, BSG Basic simply states that the bombers "avoid" the torps, but this "avoidance" should take place through normal Ordnance Phase move, and not as an 'automatic' feature. If the A-Boats and/or Bombers are contacted by the torps, they are destroyed. So this won't change in our "House Rules".

And, as an aside, we employ special rules for the Eldar Torpedoes. Based upon their description, we consider these torps to be somewhat of a stealth weapon. They cannot be targeted by direct fire weapons, although fighters on CAP may intercept them as per norm.

Again, thanks for your detailed inputs. They've been quite helpful in sorting out Ordnance mechanics.

BDJ

[Vaaish]

As I said previously the ability of a single fighter marker to take out an entire unescorted wave seems like it could be a bit overpowered, but on the other hand this presents a very good reason to include fighters in your waves.

I don't really see this as adding anything to the game. The turret suppression rules already dictate that fighters get put in bomber waves to help against high turret targets so it isn't likely to change the composition of bomber waves by much. For example, a wave of 2 bombers and 2 fighters (the max benefit from the turret suppression rules) would be taken out by 3 fighters which saves you 1 fighter marker to remove the wave. That doesn't seem worth changing the rules for even in situations where a wave might have better odds unescorted.

[andrewchristlieb]

I was thinking more along the lines of a bb+ sized wave 3f5b could be removed by 4f that seems a bit overpowered. Once again tho this means that people would start placing more fighters in waves which in the long run would weaken the damage output of carriers at range, not really the best option all around imo.

[fracas]

I think the ordnance rules are wonky and needs revision
Much more so than msm

I think the suggested house rules are ok