Hobbit Bringing a Revival

[Karak Norn Clansman]

Anyhoo, back on topic, I think we'll get a few month's of decent coverage around Xmas but then sadly I think it might well tail off again, particularly towards the end of 2013 before the same pattern repeats again the following year. I certainly don't think we'll get the kind of dedicated coverage the game used to get around 2001-2006. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong though.

Hopefully, yes. With the large (partly temporary) surge of hobbyists into Lotr following the trilogy movies, the White Dwarf staff must be idiots if they don't cover Lotr as their third main game system. This time, GW, please try to make it seated permanently as such.

GW already have a load of good miniatures (and a few bad exceptions) based on the movies, and another load of mainly even better miniatures based on the books and their own interpretation.

With the coming Hobbit releases GW should be careful to establish Lotr as a recognized wargame on par with Warhammer and 40k. Major issues here might be the rules and force organizations, for these must be appealing. The rules should keep Lotr a skirmisher game (with Wotr for larger battles), but perhaps a few tweaks are needed in order to bring the playability and gaming experience to the same level as Warhammer and 40k? The introduction of banners, Goblin Drums, shamans and other minor heroes was a step in the right direction because it added texture to the game and made it less dependant on the named heroes.

After all, playing with Aragorn and Legolas might be all right, but a lot of collectors will theme their army around a general of their own, with lieutnenants of their own. Adding minor heroes not seen in the movies, but either invented (such as Murin and Drár, or Groblog) or from the book (such as Cirion) was also right to do, because it added to the rich texture of the wargame.

As for the force organizations, these will have to be more or less set in stone after the movie releases, or preferably along with them. Should GW release army books or codexes dealing with parts of the good or evil side, or should they release everything in one rulebook, or is it better to have one dedicated rulebook (along with background material, maps, collecting, painting and even conversion pages akin to the WHFB rulebook, thank you) and two large army books, one for Good and one for Evil?

How shall the game be expanded further? Obviously there are a lot of interest in a Last Alliance release wave, and if it had been possible a departure into Silmarillion realms - mainly with loads of Elven miniatures added to the ones already available - could be succesful, especially if the main tales of the Quenta Silmarillion is treated with backgorund, campaign, scenario, rules and hobby material. For a Wargame this would not only be Beren & Luthien, Túrin Turambar, and Gondolin's Fall, but also the Darkening of Valinor & Fëanor's kinslaying and the various battles that were fought in Beleriand. But are Supplements a feasible way to go? Perhaps, but then the vast majority of profiles and stat lines should be collected in established force books (whether the rule book or various army books).

Further on, for Lotr to become established, it must be given support through White Dwarf, GW stores and tournaments and the GW website. One thing that to me always seemed lacking with Lotr, even after a lot of improvements had been made, was how it didn't appear to have the same hobby and wargaming depth as WHFB and 40k. The lack of multi-part plastics is an issue, but not a lethal one in itself, just as the different scale to Warhammer prevents people from buying Lotr elf archers for WHFB High Elves is an issue, but not a devastating one. Perhaps some metal bitz packs should be released for Lotr through the web store, along with regular conversion articles of every kind, especially if coupled with such things as warband and campaign articles. Non-GW staff hobbyists should be given some space, preferably through Tale of Four Gamers. Professional painting articles must be encouraged. Battle reports also need to be improved.

I personally think the skirmish nature of the Lotr game to be well suited for campaigns, especially if based on movie and book stories, so why not sneak in some Mighty Empires tiles, set up a WD campaign and follow this for a month or three. Terrain articles nowadays centres on GW's plastic kits, but for Lotr some old fashioned DIY-articles would be in order, just as the Helms Deep one was. Ship building could be combined with rules and battle reports about naval combat, and tunnel fights could be explored further. Point out the advantages of Lotr as a Fantasy skirmish system and try to sell its niche between 40k and WHFB.

In short, GW needs to give Lotr more depth to establish it, which as Dr Grant points out is somewhat anathema to WD's current catalogue status. GW should want to reap profit from Lotr for a long time to come, just as they do with WHFB and 40k. Then we have the issue of GW's pricing policy, but that one is not Lotr-specific...

[Greendragon]

A well thought it and very interesting post Karak, kudos to that.

[fracas]

+1 to customizable heroes

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

+1 to customizable heroes

I agree, but I think it needs to be done very carefully. Kings and captains are a tad bland as-is, but I think to maintain the feel of LotR they really shouldn't add things like magic items or artifacts, and unnamed spellcasters should remain relatively weak in their magic (like the current shamans). Either a bit of profile customizability (maybe purchasing upgrade for certain stats) or a list of generic abilities and special rules to help add a bit of flavor while not taking too much of the limelight from named heroes would be good.

Right now about the only choice people have is whether their hero is going to be mounted or not, since otherwise you generally take the best armor available but forego specialist weapons like a bow, spear, or two-handed weapon since a hero doesn't particularly benefit from them. That's generally my philosophy, anyways.

[Jobu]

I think what fracas means is a model that has several options for arms/head/weapon in the box. I agree, and GW has done a little of this with the new morgul knights/swan knights/kataphrakts. especially the new easterling cav, which has optional cloaks.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

They have additional cloaks? About bloody time! Let's hold our thumbs for more of this customisation treatment on future sprues.

Thank you, Green Dragon. What do you people think GW need to do in order to establish Lotr (and possibly Wotr) permanently as their third main game system?

I say give it support and give the Lotr hobby as much depth as WHFB and 40k, make it just as interesting and fun.

Note: I've begun buying Lotr dwarf stuff for somewhat older prices from a webstore in order to hoard it for the Hobbit.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

I think what fracas means is a model that has several options for arms/head/weapon in the box. I agree, and GW has done a little of this with the new morgul knights/swan knights/kataphrakts. especially the new easterling cav, which has optional cloaks.

Oh I see. To be honest that really doesn't bother me too much - most of the current hero models are pretty good and conversions are
more characterful anyways. Didn't know about the optional cloaks on the Kataphrakts either - that's cool!

Although, that said, without the now long-gone bitz service a couple of head options in particular would be nice for a little variability.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

I too miss the bitz service, mainly for Warhammer (including Mordheim). On the positive side of bitz for Lotr, the new casaulties were at least a step in the right direction: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...d=prod1460159a

I wouldn't mind more stuff in this vein for the Hobbit releases.

[Greendragon]

I think to establish this as the third system it really just needs more support. I walked into Exeter G.W the other day and it was WHOAH 40K HERE IT IS, the table behind that... WARHAMMER FANTASY COME AND PLAY and then tucked away at the back next to the painting station was... oh yeah we do LOTR too. For my own store's gaming events I will be trying to recruit new hobbyists into LotR, showing them the mines of moria box set and how fun the short scenarios can be. No disrespect to GW as obviously 40K makes them more money and is generally more popular. But 40k and Fantasy doesn't have 5 films and a world wide successful novel to support it's backstory.

I too have begun buying ready for hobbit shenanigans. I've just purchased a box of dwarfs and intend to paint them ready to be part of potential lonely mountain scenarios =D

[bomblu]

I think to establish this as the third system it really just needs more support. I walked into Exeter G.W the other day and it was WHOAH 40K HERE IT IS, the table behind that... WARHAMMER FANTASY COME AND PLAY and then tucked away at the back next to the painting station was... oh yeah we do LOTR too. For my own store's gaming events I will be trying to recruit new hobbyists into LotR, showing them the mines of moria box set and how fun the short scenarios can be. No disrespect to GW as obviously 40K makes them more money and is generally more popular. But 40k and Fantasy doesn't have 5 films and a world wide successful novel to support it's backstory.

I too have begun buying ready for hobbit shenanigans. I've just purchased a box of dwarfs and intend to paint them ready to be part of potential lonely mountain scenarios =D

I strongly agree with LotR being the "third main system" but there could be a small problem with that system. Here's what i think:

Before the LotR films, a substantial (if not most) amount of Wrahmmer Fantasy players and collectors considered that system to be the "closest thing" to LotR that they could purchase. Chances are that even 40K players are probably quite keen on the Tolkien novels, so the main GW "clients" were well served with these two solid game systems. Now, come the LotR movies, GW made the wise decision to buy the rights and produce minis. I tend to think that the majority of LotR miniature sales were probably by GW-new-comers who were big fans of the film, or youngsters who were introduced to GW through LotR minis and not through the WH+40K games. After three films, GW had to resort to the books to create new minis and rules. As the LotR films lost their hype and novelty, I think that the sales did drop for those systems as the fad was gone. Hence very few enthusiasts still play the game till this day.

Come November, and GW releases new Hobbit minis, i am sure that Hobbit Minis sales will drastically rise, alongside some "lost" LotR players who are yet again tempted to continue their armies. After roughly 4 years (2 years after the last film is released) the Hobbit and Lotr systems would probably start to lose steam, which would lead to GW having to come up / re-vamp older games to boost sales.

I might be off track here, but Space Hulk and Dreadfleet looked like windows of opportunity to get more sales due to the possible lack of sales due to the drop in LotR gamers.

I'm sincerely sorry for going off thread here! D:

On Topic: I hadn't considered the possibility of Hobbit being part of the LotR system. Though in fact it makes much more sense. I would honestly love to see GW create slightly larger minis for the hobbit due to it's smaller skirmishes, but that would not make much sense (business-wise)

[Karak Norn Clansman]

I strongly agree with LotR being the "third main system" but there could be a small problem with that system. Here's what i think:

Before the LotR films, a substantial (if not most) amount of Wrahmmer Fantasy players and collectors considered that system to be the "closest thing" to LotR that they could purchase. Chances are that even 40K players are probably quite keen on the Tolkien novels, so the main GW "clients" were well served with these two solid game systems. Now, come the LotR movies, GW made the wise decision to buy the rights and produce minis. I tend to think that the majority of LotR miniature sales were probably by GW-new-comers who were big fans of the film, or youngsters who were introduced to GW through LotR minis and not through the WH+40K games. After three films, GW had to resort to the books to create new minis and rules. As the LotR films lost their hype and novelty, I think that the sales did drop for those systems as the fad was gone. Hence very few enthusiasts still play the game till this day.

Come November, and GW releases new Hobbit minis, i am sure that Hobbit Minis sales will drastically rise, alongside some "lost" LotR players who are yet again tempted to continue their armies. After roughly 4 years (2 years after the last film is released) the Hobbit and Lotr systems would probably start to lose steam, which would lead to GW having to come up / re-vamp older games to boost sales.

I might be off track here, but Space Hulk and Dreadfleet looked like windows of opportunity to get more sales due to the possible lack of sales due to the drop in LotR gamers.

I'm sincerely sorry for going off thread here! D:

That is on-topic if I ever saw it. I agree with your observations on the rise and fall of the Lotr wargame's popularity, and this is the reason why I in this thread have brought up the necessity for GW to cement Lotr's popularity with the Hobbit wave's cargo of newcomers to GW and Lotr. One can't expect Lotr/Hobbit sales to remain on the predictably high levels they will reach with the novelty of the movies, but it should not be impossible for GW to keep many new hobbyists and, perhaps just as important, wake up interest for Lotr amongst the wide ranks of WHFB and 40k players. There's already a substantial miniature range for Lotr, which is sure to grow with the Hobbit releases. GW should try hard to promote Lotr amongst their customers, perhaps by having a free sprue of one or two plastic miniatures from the Hobbit movie in White Dwarf, perhaps by giving it support in-store and in WD, organizing tournaments and maybe marketing the advantages of the wargaming system (i.e. skirmish battles, up-until-now cheaper armies, Tolkien's world & the movies, and a flora of great miniatures).

I always thought the limited editions of Space Hulk and Dreadfleet (the latter of which I happily bought, jubilant at a pirate and naval Warhammer game) was a different way of reaping profits from Specialist Games by lack of need to support them later on and guaranteed sales due to their limited nature, but you might be right about them being a surrogate for the Lotr sales.

I would hate to see miniatures of a slightly different scale to be released for the Hobbit. It would be such a waste if they didn't scale well along the existing Lotr range. I would have liked if GW initially went with 28mm scale for Lotr, but alas they didn't and there is no reason why they should mess with Lotr/Hobbit miniatures scalewise.

[Peregrin]

I wouldn't bother buying them if they were a different scale. Anything I buy from the Hobbit release will be to suppliment what I already have for the SBG and WotR..... ok I might bother buying them for WotR if they could fit on the round bases, as that game doesn't rely on actual model eye view, etc. We're already proxying in some as yet unseen models for that system.

IMO, supporting the hobby, which GW hasn't done a great job of relatively speaking (can't even find official paint guides online at this point), would encourage sales. Get people to invest time and effort into something and they'll feel more attached to it.

[Dr Grant]

I think a lot of the ideas for how the game should be supported (mainly in Karak's post) are great, scenery building, scenarios, conversions etc. would all help the popularity, there is absolutely no doubt that GW could support the system as well as the other 2 through White Dwarf.

However, my issue is that WD's mission has now changed from being an inspirational hobby magazine to pushing the latest releases. This then means that WD will only support LOTR/The Hobbit as long as there are new miniatures to sell. Now assuming that GW create a really thorough range for The Hobbit (which I think they will), I can't see them still having models to release much past June 2013, hence I then think the support will drop again until the second film comes out. I think we'll then see another 6 months or so of good support into summer 2014 before it all goes quiet again.

The big issue is how they'll support the system after 2014 when there are no more films/models to push and, given WD's current content, I fear they won't. I feel genuinely torn about this:

On the negative side I obviously want to see this fantastic system given the attention it deserves and receiving regular updates, coverage, models etc.

However, on a slightly more positive note, I'm actually a big fan of how stable the game is. The fact that GW don't view it as a priority means that they don't seem to feel the need to update it nearly as often. For example, aside from the first three years of the film box sets which were by necessity changing the game to include cavalry, siege rules, monsters, banners etc. the core game rules haven't changed since the BRB came out in 2005/6. This means you can return to the game after 10 years out (as I did) and it largely be the same system. This simply isn't the case with fantasy or 40K in which their constant need to sell more figures means that everything (ideally) is updated every 5/6 years. As much as I'm looking forward to the new figures for the Hobbit I like the fact that the Moria goblin figures are the same ones that were released in 2001. As far as I know, beyond making metal figures plastic and releasing new poses of characters, there are no figures/ranges that have been updated/replaced for LOTR in its 13 year history. I know some people will view this as a bad thing but I think the fact that you're not constantly forced to buy new figures to stay current is a pretty unique aspect of the system.

In this respect LOTR is actually more like a favoured Specialist Game, they give it a little more support than the other Specialist Games but the core rulesets remain the same and perhaps this will ultimately be its home after the Hobbit boost has died down.

I can see the advantages of a move to SG (huge model range, stable rules, existing community) but would also miss the outward support, however small, they give the game. I attended the official LOTR doubles tournament at Warhammer World this year and had a BRILLIANT weekend, met some great people, played great games and found the whole thing very inspirational. LOTR moving to Specialist Games would almost certainly mean the end of these tournaments which would be a great loss to the community.

I'm also 'sure' i.e. firmly believe this based on nothing but my own opinion :-) that the Hobbit models will be the same scale as the LOTR range, GW would be mad not to make them compatible.

My advice? Make the most of LOTR being a 'main system' for the next 2 and a half years as I think we're on very shaky ground after that....

[Karak Norn Clansman]

I completely agree with your prognosis, Dr. Grant, although I of course hope against hope that a sounder business approach will be undertaken by Games Workshop before 2014.

WD's more short-term approach has meant a severe drop in quality content (although things may not be as bad now as they were when I bought a White Dwarf magazine last time). WHFB and 40k are big and thriving enough to be able to survive, and survive at ease without all the background, conversion and scenery articles, but Lotr is not in such an established position.

Hopefully the community will be able to carry on well enough of its own accord after the Hobbit release waves. For us hobbyists this means posting pictures (and text) of our Lotr miniatures, games and campaigns on Warseer and such sites to attract interest from others via the web, staging Lotr games and campaigns in real life and trying to interest non-Lotrists for the game at gaming clubs or the like. Staging tournaments in areas with sufficiently many Lotr players will also help. That's how we can support our game.

[fracas]

I agree, but I think it needs to be done very carefully. Kings and captains are a tad bland as-is, but I think to maintain the feel of LotR they really shouldn't add things like magic items or artifacts, and unnamed spellcasters should remain relatively weak in their magic (like the current shamans). Either a bit of profile customizability (maybe purchasing upgrade for certain stats) or a list of generic abilities and special rules to help add a bit of flavor while not taking too much of the limelight from named heroes would be good.

Right now about the only choice people have is whether their hero is going to be mounted or not, since otherwise you generally take the best armor available but forego specialist weapons like a bow, spear, or two-handed weapon since a hero doesn't particularly benefit from them. That's generally my philosophy, anyways.

This is what I mean.
Could be as simple as +1 to a captain's might, fate, or will (one of the three)
And one of six hero powers (keep each simple like Terror for instance)

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

This is what I mean.
Could be as simple as +1 to a captain's might, fate, or will (one of the three)
And one of six hero powers (keep each simple like Terror for instance)

Yeah I think just some purchasable upgrades that would let unnamed heroes fill a couple different roles would be good. I'm not sure how I'd do it without overpowering them, but it would be nice to make archer heroes a worthwhile investment too.

[mdauben]

, and if it had been possible a departure into Silmarillion realms - mainly with loads of Elven miniatures added to the ones already available - could be succesful, especially if the main tales of the Quenta Silmarillion is treated with backgorund, campaign, scenario, rules and hobby material. For a Wargame this would not only be Beren & Luthien, Túrin Turambar, and Gondolin's Fall, but also the Darkening of Valinor & Fëanor's kinslaying and the various battles that were fought in Beleriand.

I would dearly love to see the game expanded into the Silmarillion matieral. There a lots of interesting characters and exciting battles to be found there.

Unfortunatly, it will never happen.

The movies, the games, and all the other things associated with the franchise were only possible because JRR sold off the rights to both the LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit while he was still alive. Everything to do with Middle Earth outside of book publication derives from those rights. No one has the rights to produce games using The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, or the History of Middle Earth books. Those all remain under the control of the Tolkein family and IIRC Christopher Tolkien (the author's son) has on more than one occasion said he would never approve any non-literary use of his father's work.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

I would dearly love to see the game expanded into the Silmarillion matieral. There a lots of interesting characters and exciting battles to be found there.

Unfortunatly, it will never happen.

The movies, the games, and all the other things associated with the franchise were only possible because JRR sold off the rights to both the LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit while he was still alive. Everything to do with Middle Earth outside of book publication derives from those rights. No one has the rights to produce games using The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, or the History of Middle Earth books. Those all remain under the control of the Tolkein family and IIRC Christopher Tolkien (the author's son) has on more than one occasion said he would never approve any non-literary use of his father's work.

Yes this is sadly true. Christopher Tolkien, JRR's third and youngest son, is holed up in southern France. For all his work with bringing us his father's material posthumously, I dislike Christopher Tolkien's break with his own son (who supported the trilogy movies) and dead-set attitude to prevent first age material from being used by games producers and the like. If anything it is idiotic because the trilogy movies was what made me and my friends discover Tolkien in the first place, and from there I went on and read a lot of Tolkien's books. The movies made Tolkien's literary heritage a grand service.

If C. Tolkien want more people to discover Silmarillion and other first age material, then he should change his stance on this question.

[Jobu]

This is what I mean.
Could be as simple as +1 to a captain's might, fate, or will (one of the three)
And one of six hero powers (keep each simple like Terror for instance)

How about this?

Hero generator
Take a normal captain, then:

Pick one from list A

To add a single point of M,W or F = +5 points to the hero
+1 fight or -1 shoot value but not both = +5 points, -5 in the opposite directions

And/or one from list B

To add a special rule
Poison arrow or weapon =+ 5 points
“Go for the eyes” =-1 courage and add 5 points
Bodyguard= +5points
“Captain of regard” ( acts as a banner ) = +20 points
“Fearsome Foe” ( causes terror ) = +5points
If hero can have TW’s-upgrade to “balanced weapons”=+5 points, throwing weapons may be rerolled if the to hit roll fails
To add the “chop” special rule, must have 2 handed weapon option= +10 points
“Inspiring presence”, stand fast increased to 12 inches=+20 points
“What you talkin’ about willis”, hero can not call any heroic action=-10 points
“Elite Guard”, same as dwarf shield bearer rules= hero losses all MWF except 1 F

[Thuggrim]

As far as the films go the last I had read/heard was the story was spread over 2 films, with the background stuff with the White Council etc being expanded to fill out the two films and provide a more rounded prequel to the LoTR films. How the story will be divided is as far as I am aware unknown to this point, although from the trailer we see the dwarves in Mirkwood and Gandalf in Dol Guldor.

I believe what we are likely to see is a box release each year - much better way of merchandising to beginers and an ideal Christmas Present...

I suspect the first year we will get a replacement box for the skirmish battle game (Dwarves and Bilbo vs Spiders is my guess) then in 2013 we will see a WoTR starter box based on the battle of five armies. Plastics are more than good enough to include a good and sizable range of miniatures, and some bigger minis, and provide an excellent base to relaunch what I think is one of the better games they have produced in a while (Even if the magic a little powerful)

Given they have supposedly hired/created a Lotr designteam so releases do not interfere with WFB/W40k it seems they are planning on spinning more money from this.

Just my attempts to guess GW logic and thinking so could be wildly off...

As for developing it as a third system, it very much depends on if they can find a way to keep creating new content that has a sufficent model sales potential.

Edit: I reckon plastic dwarves as if your bring new people in do you want the models everyone will most likely want being finecast with its associated issues?