"The Lion" Tuchulcha and Cypher

[La'mour Le Breton]

After reading "The Lion" short story from The Primarchs HH novel, I've been wondering about, I don't know how to do the spoiler button, so here it goes
SPOILER ALERT

Tuchulcha, the warp entity that was being held on Perditus that everyone was fighting over.
It seemed to have the ability to transfer anything to anywhere at will, I'm not sure of the limitations of this ability

After reading more into DA fluff, I couldn't help but think that Cypher, and his whole thing with being whisked away at the last second, and appearing willy nilly all over the galaxy, maybe has something to to with Tuchulcha? He's on Caliban, Daddy comes home and starts wrecking up the place, he finds this weird all powerful warp creature with the personality of an 8 year old and tricks it into getting him the hell out of there?

On the subject, what is Tuchulcha? when I first starting reading "The Lion" i was thinking maybe something necron, but his whole childish personality kinda threw me off.

Thoughts? Arguments? Complaints?

[All Cing Eye]

Interesting possibility but Tuchulcha (sp?) I do think it will play an important role in the Heresy and afterwards. It will allow The Lion to strike anywhere, so I expect a lot of hit and run attacks on important facilities allied to Horus, and maybe even some allied to Gulliman.

I think its just an alien entity of unknown origins, not everything has to be from one of the playable races. I'd like to see more stuff like that.

[stormblade]

He's going to use it to defeat the NL and their nutcase primarch.
I don't think the thing is necron, from its conversation with the DG I got the impression that it's rather chaosy in nature.

[Navigator19]

It's not Necron, that's for sure. It's a warp artifact and the Necrons pretty much hate all things warp. Personally, I think that Tuchulcha is something from the Old Ones that never got turned on and just sat around waiting for people.
Also, Tuchulcha doesn't have the personality of an eight year old; it uses an eight year old as a mouth piece - I imagine that any direct communication with an almost all-powerful warp relic would be quite psychically painful. The eight year old kid is just the Metatron to keep every non-Primarch in the room from bleeding through the nose and falling to their knees. Remember, the first time Tuchulcha talked to anyone he enslaved the planet.

As for what The Lion wants to do with Tuchulcha...that's interesting. Probably try and bring the Night Lords to open battle, then go investigate Caliban. Which is where Cypher could conceivably steal it, and use it to his own ends. Perhaps the Fallen Angels aren't so strictly chaotic and more Tuchulcha'd?

[Inquisitor Engel]

He's going to use it to defeat the NL and their nutcase primarch.

Going into established background, it's pretty clear The Lion doesn't do anything to substantive Curze or the VIII Legion. The Night Lords live on and strike out from Tsagualsa for TWO HUNDRED YEARS after the Heresy and it takes the entirety of the Ultramarines to dislodge and break them, and that's AFTER M'Shen has already offed their Primarch.

The Lion and Curze even had a duel once, on Tsagualsa while the fortress was being built Curze beat Jonson to a pulp once he closed in.

The Lion has to make it Terra with Russ after all. Given the timeline, the Dark Angels probably give up on tracking down the Night Lords and head to Terra with the Space Wolves shortly after their Primarch gets the beatdown from Night Haunter.

[stormblade]

Defeat =/= destroy. And that's a single planet with no strategic value at the time. They're are 'currently' fightning over a much larger area of space.

[Sqallum]

Um... Curze does NOT pulp Jonson. It is completely the other way round. Jonson is dominating Curze til it gets into a brawl, where Curze wins. In terms of skill with a blade/claws Jonson owns Curze. It even says in Savage Weapons.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Defeat =/= destroy. And that's a single planet with no strategic value at the time. They're are 'currently' fightning over a much larger area of space.

And given the Night Lords hung out and harassed the entire galaxy from that planet with "no strategic value" for the next two centuries, I think it's safe to assume the Dark Angels did not, in fact, defeat the Night Lords.

Um... Curze does NOT pulp Jonson. It is completely the other way round. Jonson is dominating Curze til it gets into a brawl, where Curze wins. In terms of skill with a blade/claws Jonson owns Curze. It even says in Savage Weapons.

Yes, which is when Curze beats Jonson senseless and Jonson and the Dark Angels retreat after a PRIMARCH needs to be rescued by one of his Astartes. The Lion lands the first blow, landed without warning is then being wounded in turn. The Lion wins the sparring style combat and then loses hardcore when Curze stops trying to be something he's not. The Lion needs to be rescued by a Dark Angel to avoid being killed by Curze.

Winning is winning, no matter how you do it.

It should be noted that's the second time Curze beat a Primarch senseless. He beat Dorn into a coma.

[Mattland]

It should be noted that's the second time Curze beat a Primarch senseless. He beat Dorn into a coma.

And made Corax run for his life...

[stormblade]

And given the Night Lords hung out and harassed the entire galaxy from that planet with "no strategic value" for the next two centuries, I think it's safe to assume the Dark Angels did not, in fact, defeat the Night Lords.

Right because being able to harass is a good indicator of someone's control over an area of space.

Winning is winning, no matter how you do it.

Yep, and Corswain won.
Not that the scuffle between the two primarchs or anything that happens on tsugalsa was of any significance to the war as nothing really happend that would shift the balance of power.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Right because being able to harass is a good indicator of someone's control over an area of space.

What if that's your goal? Losers of a battle saying they won because the victor's intentions with that resource weren't the same as theirs is silly. No one thinks the Eldar lost the battle of Betallis III just because the Imperium thinks it won. In that case, the Eldar achieved their objectives handedly. In the case of the Night Lords, harassing the Imperium and sowing fear randomly, far and wide WAS the objective.

Achieving your objective sounds like victory to me.

[stormblade]

Why would we assume that was their goal?

[Inquisitor Engel]

Why would we assume that was their goal?

Lord of the Night, Soul Hunter, Blood Reaver and [especially] Void Reaver spell it out pretty explicitly.

[MiyamatoMusashi]

Prince of Crows mixes things up a lot. Spoilers follow.

Night Haunter very definitely loses a fight with the Lion... thanks to Tuchulcha granting the Lion the ability to ambush him. It's an absolute thrashing, actually, and is reflected on a larger scale as the DA legion ambushes and defeats the NL legion.

Curze survives (barely) and much later, they have another fight - the text specifically calls it out as the first fair fight they had (even in Savage Weapons, the Lion struck a dishonourable blow, though he still needed rescuing to avoid death at Night Haunter's hands) and it seems fairly even; my money would have been on Curze winning eventually, but he eventually realised he was massively outnumbered and had to flee.

The Night Lords basically give up on the campaign; they have to. Tuchulcha has given the DAs the ability to find and defeat the NLs wherever they find them, they simply can't compete against that. The Lion is tainted by association with Tuchulcha IMO, but exactly what that means long term we don't yet know. As for Night Haunter, well, both he and the Lion are still alive so technically none of them have truly "lost" yet but I make the score 1-1-1, with the Lion's 1 only possible thanks to Tuchulcha.

Anyone replying, please use spoiler tags and respect people's wishes not to have unreleased books spoiled for them. Thanks.

[stormblade]

Lord of the Night, Soul Hunter, Blood Reaver and [especially] Void Reaver spell it out pretty explicitly.

Hadn't read them, I don't really bother with non-HH SM stuff.

[Lupe]

Hadn't read them, I don't really bother with non-HH SM stuff.

Endeavor to correct that at your earliest convenience. All four of the above are above the bulk of the Heresy books in terms of quality.

[Poncho160]

Prince of Crows mixes things up a lot. Spoilers follow.

Night Haunter very definitely loses a fight with the Lion... thanks to Tuchulcha granting the Lion the ability to ambush him. It's an absolute thrashing, actually, and is reflected on a larger scale as the DA legion ambushes and defeats the NL legion.

Curze survives (barely) and much later, they have another fight - the text specifically calls it out as the first fair fight they had (even in Savage Weapons, the Lion struck a dishonourable blow, though he still needed rescuing to avoid death at Night Haunter's hands) and it seems fairly even; my money would have been on Curze winning eventually, but he eventually realised he was massively outnumbered and had to flee.

The Night Lords basically give up on the campaign; they have to. Tuchulcha has given the DAs the ability to find and defeat the NLs wherever they find them, they simply can't compete against that. The Lion is tainted by association with Tuchulcha IMO, but exactly what that means long term we don't yet know. As for Night Haunter, well, both he and the Lion are still alive so technically none of them have truly "lost" yet but I make the score 1-1-1, with the Lion's 1 only possible thanks to Tuchulcha.

Anyone replying, please use spoiler tags and respect people's wishes not to have unreleased books spoiled for them. Thanks.

KURZE SPOLIER BELOW


Just in case you havent read the Night Lords trilogy, it was confirmed that Kurze was definetley killed by M'Shen.

[Aranel]

Prince of Crows, is that the Konrad Curze short story? When's it out? ADB did say that the DA would win the Thramas crusade eventually and Night Haunter got a kicking from the Lion so this sounds like the finale of this story arc. Not to mention the first significant loyalist victory in the HH series so far discounting Prospero (which IMHO doesn't count!)

[Inquisitor Engel]

Endeavor to correct that at your earliest convenience. All four of the above are above the bulk of the Heresy books in terms of quality.

Quoted for truth. The Night Lords trilogy is some of the best Black Library stuff EVER IMHO and to be honest, discussing the Night Lords without having read them makes one's argument more than a bit hollow.


Re: Prince of Crows - It's not in the previous short-story compendiums, and it's not an audiobook I can find - is it out yet?

[Hrogoff the Destructor]

I swore in one of the Night Lords novels...

Cruze had a wound on his neck given to him from the Lion, a wound not yet inflicted in any story.