Abusive allies builds

[ForgottenLore]

Taking allies should reduce your armies strategy rating...if that is still sticking around.

I don't mind it existing. I expect it to be shackled.

That is actually a really good idea, but 5th (or was it 4th) did away with strategy ratings so it isn't likely.

If they did bring a similar concept back for 6th though, your right, allies should totally provide a penalty to it.

[Kalandros]

reading other forums, no idea what really works or not but its copypasta time:

"Lash of Submission+Imperial Guard
Really? You mean it GW? You certain I can group termies into a bundle and layer a stack of pancakes on them?"

"play Tau
Eldar are brothers in arms for some stupid reason
casting Fortune on my Tau gunline all day err' day"

"space marine librarian with infinity gate
blob of IG totaling lots of models
you see where this is going"

"Big Mek with force field + 30 Shoota Boyz = amazing screen for Tesla Immortals?!?"

"Trazyn and Valeria can be fielded together.
In the grim dark future there is only true love"

[Mikial]

Really doubt it is going to be a problem...

Your average tournament are guaranteed to run at "no allies"*, at least after the first attempt has bombed with whatever obvious abusive ultimate combo the internet will have compiled within an hour of the books release and we know the exact limitations of the rules, and for friendly pick up games, likewise people will go "eh, no thanks, I'll play someone else..." when faced with the same combo.

I really like the idea of allies, but from what it looks like at their site now it looks like...hmm... fail....
Not from the abuse aspect of it, but because it looks like there is too little restrictions on who can ally with whom. Why put restrictions in there if they are next to none? Nearly any alliance can be explained with a special scenario one-off desperate circumstance (Bro-fisting Blood Angels and Necrons come to mind), so if you are going to put in rules, why not make them sensible? Orks and Space Marines? (Didn't Dark Angels, last time allies were around, don't recall if it was actually called allies, as in 2nd Ed, or if it was through multiple detachments in 3rd, use to have a clause explicitly saying they would not ally with Xenos?

And you cannot use Space Marine Allies with Chaos? What about post-heresy traitors joining up with Legionaries, things like the Red Corsairs, fallen Dark Angels, wayward lost companies of Space Wolves, Whats-their-names Blood Angels Successors that are featured both in the Chaos 'dex and the BA one? Simply legion warbands utilising captured?

Orks and Tau? It is right there in the book that the Tau early on in their expansion encountered Orks, naively said "Hey, fierce warrior species, you are just what we need! You want to be friends and join the Greater Good, don't you?" and then after the ensuing ultraviolent conflicts gave up all attempts to recruit the greenskin.

No allies whatsoever for Tyranids? So, no Imperial guard as Genestealer brood brothers and whatever their name was in the late 1st ed list, some sort of head-attaching parasite (*possibly*, now as I think of it, that one has already been re-imagined into the Medusea in the Dark Eldar court, but still...)

So, I hold of my final verdict until I read the actual rules, but for now I lean towards a vague dissapointment over a missed chance for something good... but still, again I doubt it is going to affect how we play the game.


* Like any serious ones have done every edition there have been allies in one way or another. I remember the straw breaking the local camels back in 2nd ed was Chief Librarian Tigurious and his two personal Apotecharies in several Eldar Armies, the point was him having a piece of gear that made his psychic powers unstoppable, at the price of taking D6-4 wounds each time, and the Apotecharies in base contact being able to heal 1 wound each to a still living model...

I agree completely with the Nid-Genestealer cult IG alliance. My wife and I team up like that all the time . . . she's the Nids and I'm the GS cult IG. It works really good.

I also think taking the Inquisitional Storm Troopers always mentioned in the fluff away from the Inquisitors makes no sense. What inquisitor is going to go into a pitched battle with only their henchmen war band? Face it, there aren't that many GK and they are sure not going to pitch into every battle with aliens or simple traitors.

[Raulengrin]

Whether or not Fortune will affect Eldar's allies is more complex than people are letting on. The obvious argument is that Fortune can only be targeted on a single Eldar unit, in which case that Eldar unit will be able to re-roll failed saves. Now, if Eldrad were to join a unit of Dire Avengers, and cast Fortune on them, he himself gains the benefit as well, as he is both an Eldar, and part of that Eldar unit. Now, since Eldar are brothers-in-arms with Tau, Eldrad can join a unit of Fire Warriors. He can then go on casting fortune on himself, as he is an Eldar unit and can be targeted by the spell. The question is, since the Fire Warriors are technically the same unit as Eldrad, do they benefit as well? Or will Eldrad simply say no, and keep all the bullet-dodging goodness for himself? Can Eldrad simply not cast fortune on himself while part of a squad made up of things obviously not Eldar? There will have to be either a specific FAQ to answer this, or a rule that details how mixed units will work (the former being much more likely). That being said, there is no way in hell, heaven, the warp, webway, or any other dimension conceivable will any Farseer be able to cast fortune (or guide, for that matter) on non-Eldar any unit that he is not in. Space Marines are not Eldar, Tau are not Eldar, Imperial Guard are not Eldar, Dark Eldar are not Eldar.

[Polaria]

reading other forums, no idea what really works or not but its copypasta time:

"Lash of Submission+Imperial Guard
Really? You mean it GW? You certain I can group termies into a bundle and layer a stack of pancakes on them?"

Tell me... How is this different from taking Lash and few Vindicators in current edition? You don't need allies for **** like this...

[big squig]

How about lash + that necron flyer (forgot name)? Just lash the enemy unit into a nice neat little line and blast away.

Oh, and I would gladly put a big mek with KFF in my guard army...

[archanfel]

reading other forums, no idea what really works or not but its copypasta time:
"play Tau
Eldar are brothers in arms for some stupid reason
casting Fortune on my Tau gunline all day err' day"

to bad that eldar powers all said target eldar unit

[Grimtuff]

to bad that eldar powers all said target eldar unit

This is why we need a *facepalm* avatar Warseer...

Raulengrin explained why it is not as cut and dry as that. It needs FAQing to stop a hell of a lot of arguments/abusive builds in their tracks. Next time take your broken record elsewhere please.

[Memnos]

This is why we need a *facepalm* avatar Warseer...

Raulengrin explained why it is not as cut and dry as that. It needs FAQing to stop a hell of a lot of arguments/abusive builds in their tracks. Next time take your broken record elsewhere please.

It wasn't an argument. He didn't say anything other than, "to bad that eldar powers all said target eldar unit". Now, if he'd said "Too bad", then it would have been an argument.

He said "to bad". In this context, "to" could be a means of identifying the person or thing affected. In this case, "bad". Or it could mean he was directing somebody to an improper noun.

Next, he said "that eldar players" - So, what he was saying was essentially "In regards to bad(An improper pronoun obviously referring to a nebulous group he knows), a particular group of eldar players" as a beginning.

He then went on to say, "said target eldar unit" - In this case, if he had said "says" instead of "said", it would have suggested something currently pronounces something. As it is, he's either referring to a particular unit (said target eldar unit) or this is an actual quote.

So, if I were to guess based upon proper English, he wasn't arguing at all. I would say a proper translation of what he wrote was:

"To bad!", that Eldar Players said.

I'm assuming Eldar Players is the name of a person - Possibly a family acquaintance - As if it were a group of people, it would be 'Those Eldar players'.

On topic: Eldar and Dark Eldar being brothers opens up a lot of neat options. Purchasing an Autarch and using a Webway Portal could make for some pretty awesome combinations. Specifically, Wraithguard showing up 12 inches from the enemy, bay-bee!

[Grimtuff]

It wasn't an argument. He didn't say anything other than, "to bad that eldar powers all said target eldar unit". Now, if he'd said "Too bad", then it would have been an argument.

He said "to bad". In this context, "to" could be a means of identifying the person or thing affected. In this case, "bad". Or it could mean he was directing somebody to an improper noun.

Next, he said "that eldar players" - So, what he was saying was essentially "In regards to bad(An improper pronoun obviously referring to a nebulous group he knows), a particular group of eldar players" as a beginning.

He then went on to say, "said target eldar unit" - In this case, if he had said "says" instead of "said", it would have suggested something currently pronounces something. As it is, he's either referring to a particular unit (said target eldar unit) or this is an actual quote.

So, if I were to guess based upon proper English, he wasn't arguing at all. I would say a proper translation of what he wrote was:

"To bad!", that Eldar Players said.

I'm assuming Eldar Players is the name of a person - Possibly a family acquaintance - As if it were a group of people, it would be 'Those Eldar players'.

Wheaton's law.

[Yabyahoo]

Imperial Guard Leafblower with Grey Knight purifiers?

I Know if i see that setting up in front of me i'll start packing up and saying gg.


Nidus

You do realise that in the last turn, the Grey Knights will have to exterminate the rest of your army?

[x-esiv-4c]

Epidemus + Deathguard lists?

[Clarkson]

Epidemus + Deathguard lists?

until an faq rules it out.. i see that going ahead as the goto list for chaos.. who can pass up the build they have atm (lashprince/sorc, rhinospam plagues and oblits) with adding epidemius? he is 149pts (with nurgling tax), leaving you and 1850 army that will have in short work 3+FNP, and powerweapons. especially against hordes.. christ one blob of orks will be enough to have all the bells and whistles

[Stormtrooper Clark]

Draigowing probably, unless Special Characters can't be used mind.

[TheDoctor]

until an faq rules it out.. i see that going ahead as the goto list for chaos.. who can pass up the build they have atm (lashprince/sorc, rhinospam plagues and oblits) with adding epidemius? he is 149pts (with nurgling tax), leaving you and 1850 army that will have in short work 3+FNP, and powerweapons. especially against hordes.. christ one blob of orks will be enough to have all the bells and whistles

Doesnt the tally only go up when Nurgle stuff kills models? So your lash princes and oblits wouldn't be contributing to the tally. (I might be wrong)

[Hashulaman]

Yea, only Nurgle Daemons or units with Mark of Nurgle(both sides) can increase the tally.

Has it been confirmed if CSM can even take Epidemius as an Ally? Same with any SC for that matter.

[Sir_Turalyon]

Guardsman Marbo may go fully mercanary and start appearing along the various Marines / CSM, Eldar, Sisters, Orks...

If Battle Brothers rule really works as rumours say, Starkens' counter attack / furious charge bubble can be more useful if he leads a Marine army. Creed making a deathstar unit outflank comes to mind as well... Astropath and Navy officer a welcome bonus.

Along with new wound allocation rules, guard Priests could yet be made useful, for Marine armies, especially big survivable death stars... giving chaplains' charge bonus for less than half of chaplains' price.

[tu33y]

imperial guard and Tank Company? melta vets? with Russes as Troops? BS4 HQ tanks? SHAZAM!!!!!

[Bartali]

I'm looking forward to having a go with this BA/DA combo at 1500. At higher points values, add in fire support

Belial w/ TH/SS
BA Librarian w/ TDA, SS, Unleash Rage, Sword Of Sanguinius
Sang Priest w/ TDA
5x Deathwing w/ 4XTH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, CML.
5x Deathwing w/ 4XTH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, CML.
5x Deathwing w/ 4XTH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, CML.
10x BA ASM w/ Meltagunsx2
10x BA ASM w/ Meltagunsx2

[x-esiv-4c]

SCs can be taken.
So yes, Deathguard (or anything Nurgle marked) + Epi could lead to some abuse.