Salamander flame template into combat?

[gorblud]

Hey!

when the lizardmen salamander shoots, it puts the flame template to it's mouth and then roll the artillery dice to see how far it overshoots.

Let us say a unit is engaged in combat with another unit. Behind those two units there is another unit. Can I target the unit behind those engaged in combat, even if it might land on them?

On the cannon it says that it is forbidden to shoot in a way that might end up bouncing or landing in a unit engaged in combat, the catapult might scatter into combat, the flamethrower however, doesn't say anything about it, nor does it say anything in the lizardmen army book.

[MOMUS]

I think a large amount of people agree that the cannon sets a precedent. You cannot shoot into combat, its not too much of a stretch to follow this and say you cannot shoot in a way that may possibly hit troops in combat.

[Trigger87]

But stone throwers can be shot in such a way that they can hit combat, so it could be argued that sets a precedent.

[MOMUS]

Stone throwers scatter is random, you aim the flame from a sallie.

[The bearded one]

The firethrower is the most comparable warmachine though, which sets the precedent for saying nothing about it, so allowing it.

Technically it is allowed, I just don't do it as I don't want to bother with getting into an argument.

[-Totenkopf-]

It is totally allowed.. Just frowned upon a little. However, It's a totally viable tactic to put your own troops at risk of artillery fire, historically speaking.. This was also legit when I started playing back in 4th ed. For me, when I play my Lizzies, I decide how cheesy I want to be with my salimanders based on how cheesy a list I am up against. I play a lot of games vs WoC, daemons and ogres.. If they cheese out, I will take those shots

On a side note, I will only take a shot like that if there is a chance to completely miss the unit in combat meaning if I roll a 10, 8 or even a 6 that the flames will shoot right over but a 2 or 4 will really mess stuff up

From a rules perspective, there is nothing saying you can't. Anywhere. The only cases for not being able to comes from other rule and war machine references that say you can't. In each case, it specifically says not to do that. In the case of the Sally, it does not.

[dms505]

Not to Hijack this thread but I've been contemplating firing a Salamander through a small forest. Possible? It's not a wall or obstacle. It could technically shoot OVER the trees since the Salamander is a spit attack instead of an actual flame breath which would be more in a straight line. If fact is there anything stopping me from firing it into a wood where a unit is sitting? since it's template they wouldn't get an defense at all.

[MOMUS]

It is totally allowed.. Just frowned upon a little. However, It's a totally viable tactic to put your own troops at risk of artillery fire, historically speaking.. This was also legit when I started playing back in 4th ed. For me, when I play my Lizzies, I decide how cheesy I want to be with my salimanders based on how cheesy a list I am up against. I play a lot of games vs WoC, daemons and ogres.. If they cheese out, I will take those shots

On a side note, I will only take a shot like that if there is a chance to completely miss the unit in combat meaning if I roll a 10, 8 or even a 6 that the flames will shoot right over but a 2 or 4 will really mess stuff up

From a rules perspective, there is nothing saying you can't. Anywhere. The only cases for not being able to comes from other rule and war machine references that say you can't. In each case, it specifically says not to do that. In the case of the Sally, it does not.

Except when you fire into a combat with a salamander you can easily position the model so there is no risk of hitting your troops at all. There is no risk at all involved.

The rules state quite clearly that you cannot shoot into a combat. It also says that units in combat are a swirling melee rather than two neatly positioned blocks.

[-Totenkopf-]

Salamander can shoot into a forest. It says that the flames arch up and then land, so you can over shoot units or shoot over obstacles.

@MOMUS- It's not directly firing into combat. You're firing passed a combat and it's scattering randomly. I stated how I felt about it.. You should always try for good sport first.. Like I said, I will only fire that way if there is a good chance to completely miss the combat, his troops and my own. It's a rule loop hole until FAQed and it's up to the community to police itself. Meaning, don't cry if it happens to you, know it exists and don't go getting yourself outmanouvered so that it can happen. Be a good sport and hope your opponent does the same and if he is a powergaming turbo nerd then take it as it is..

[MOMUS]

@MOMUS- It's not directly firing into combat. You're firing passed a combat and it's scattering randomly. I stated how I felt about it.. You should always try for good sport first.. Like I said, I will only fire that way if there is a good chance to completely miss the combat, his troops and my own. It's a rule loop hole until FAQed and it's up to the community to police itself. Meaning, don't cry if it happens to you, know it exists and don't go getting yourself outmanouvered so that it can happen. Be a good sport and hope your opponent does the same and if he is a powergaming turbo nerd then take it as it is..

First off I play lizardmen, so unlike you my argument is not biased.
You state that you play them depending on how cheesey you think your opponents list is? Hardly a reliable method.
How about, its a grey area that no tournament (or casual player) would ever allow. Its against the letter of the rules and you shouldnt do it.

Again, its not random. There is a set area of the template and a set amount of distances that can be rolled, meaning when you set up an 'accidental' shot its usually more likely to hit troops than it is not. I think you should probably follow your own advice, be a good sport and not rely on 'rule loop holes' to win you battles.

[-Totenkopf-]

SO how does having 5000pts of Lizardmen exclude me as one who plays Lizardmen?
I have played this game for a long, long time and there have been times that such shots from all warmachines were fair game.. As far as the Salimander's shots are concerned, it's a current loop hole.. Get over it. There are lots of them in the game. Choosing not to do it is fine.. When I play a turbo nerd rules lawyer who is exploiting similar things in his own list, he will get a taste of his own medicine. Never once in my comments did I ever mention it as a way to win battles, so lets not jump to conclusions.. So as far as the purpose of this thread is concerned. Yes, it can be done. Is it in good sport? Well, that is another thread all together.

[Dante blackfur]

Its against the letter of the rules and you shouldnt do it.

its not against the letter of the rule as there is nothing in the attack stating you can't do it. HOWEVER it is against the spirit of the rules as you resolve the attack it like a cannon shot (pick a direction roll dice to see haw far it goes) and in the cannons description it says you cant.

[MOMUS]

SO how does having 5000pts of Lizardmen exclude me as one who plays Lizardmen?
I have played this game for a long, long time and there have been times that such shots from all warmachines were fair game.. As far as the Salimander's shots are concerned, it's a current loop hole.. Get over it. There are lots of them in the game. Choosing not to do it is fine.. When I play a turbo nerd rules lawyer who is exploiting similar things in his own list, he will get a taste of his own medicine. Never once in my comments did I ever mention it as a way to win battles, so lets not jump to conclusions.. So as far as the purpose of this thread is concerned. Yes, it can be done. Is it in good sport? Well, that is another thread all together.

I never said you didnt play lizardmen, I said your argument is biased because you play lizardmen. As you yourself state its a loop hole, it should not exist. It states in the rulebook you cannot shoot into combat. It makes no sense from a rules or fluff perspective.
The fact that you have alot of lizardmen models, you have played wfb for a 'long time' or that you occasionally play 'turbo nerd rules lawyers' adds no weight to your argument.

its not against the letter of the rule as there is nothing in the attack stating you can't do it. HOWEVER it is against the spirit of the rules as you resolve the attack it like a cannon shot (pick a direction roll dice to see haw far it goes) and in the cannons description it says you cant.

Again, it states you cannot shoot into combat for fear of hitting your own troops.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

It's not only unsportsmanlike, but also against the rules. Anyone saying otherwise is either being a rules lawyer, and or hasn't read the Cannon section of the BrB, which lays down a formula for shooting.

[Moss]

I have two points/questions:

1) We're talking about firing at a unit BEHIND a combat, which means you probably cannot see it anyway, right?

2) What if the unit at which you are firing is in FRONT of the combat, and the fire happens to overshoot? Does that change any opinions?

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Can I target the unit behind those engaged in combat, even if it might land on them?

No. You cannot target a unit in close combat unless explicitly allowed to do so (Slaves).

The firethrower is the most comparable warmachine though, which sets the precedent for saying nothing about it, so allowing it.

Saying nothing about it doesn't allow anything. My cannon entry for example doesn't say anything about shooting multiple times and this silence still does not allow it.

It is totally allowed.. Just frowned upon a little. However, It's a totally viable tactic to put your own troops at risk of artillery fire, historically speaking.. This was also legit when I started playing back in 4th ed. For me, when I play my Lizzies, I decide how cheesy I want to be with my salimanders based on how cheesy a list I am up against. I play a lot of games vs WoC, daemons and ogres.. If they cheese out, I will take those shots

No, it is not "totally allowed". It is clearly and explicitly "totally" disallowed. Please take a look at the 8th edition targetting rules. They decide this issue, not history, 4th edition or your mood.

On a side note, I will only take a shot like that if there is a chance to completely miss the unit in combat meaning if I roll a 10, 8 or even a 6 that the flames will shoot right over but a 2 or 4 will really mess stuff up

Whether hitting is a certainty or just a chance is of no relevance. My handgunners only have a 1 in 3 chance to hit those guys in combat, too.

From a rules perspective, there is nothing saying you can't.

Oh please, Totenkopf! This is such a beginner's mistake. You need a permission to do something, not the other way around. If you can show me a line in the BRB or the Salamander entry where it permits you to target models in combat, go ahead.

its not against the letter of the rule as there is nothing in the attack stating you can't do it.

Cool. There's nothing "in the attack" (?) stating my Outriders can't do it. There's nothing "in the attack" (entry? BRB? AB?) that says they don't have magical flaming attacks.

[N810]

Well the Skaven Warpfire rececntly got a FAQ concerning placing and firing the flame template,
(the same mechanic as salamanders).

it goes something like this...

Pick the WFT you wish to fire; nominate the enemy unit you with your WFT to fire at; pivot the WFT to face the target; lay the template down pointed at your target (though be careful not to touch a friendly unit/ combat with the initial lay down); roll the artillery dice and move the template that many inches; anything friend or foe laying beneath the template needs to have a hit resolved against it.

[MOMUS]

Well the Skaven Warpfire rececntly got a FAQ concerning placing and firing the flame template,
(the same mechanic as salamanders).

it goes something like this...

Pick the WFT you wish to fire; nominate the enemy unit you with your WFT to fire at; pivot the WFT to face the target; lay the template down pointed at your target (though be careful not to touch a friendly unit/ combat with the initial lay down); roll the artillery dice and move the template that many inches; anything friend or foe laying beneath the template needs to have a hit resolved against it.

I didnt see the part where its says, 'you can fire it into a combat'.

[N810]

Exactly, you can still only "Target" unengaged enemy units, and you can't initaily place the template so that it would touch any friendly units or engaged units, but it might scatter (autuliary dice roll) into friendlies or engaged units by accident. acording to the Skaven FAQ.

PS. could somebody Quote the FAQ, I curently can't get to the site. (at work)

[theunwantedbeing]

Well the Skaven Warpfire rececntly got a FAQ concerning placing and firing the flame template,
(the same mechanic as salamanders).

Would you mind pointing out where?
As far as I can see, there was no Errata to it and no Amendments, just a single FAQ answer allowing you to fire it so that it can hit freindly troops after it moves (but not when you place it initially).

There's nothing at all that mentions firing into a combat in any way in either the book or the FAQ.
Same as Salamanders.

As a result it stands to reason that you are not allowed to fire it in such a manner that you would hit anything in a combat as it is not stated to be allowed to.