How to make MSU viable in 8th? (Focus on WE)

[Doommasters]

First I am a big fan of 8th edition and what is has done to make infantry more viable than in 7th and the move to 'balanced' army book is also a fantastic change. However one army that faces a possibilty of losing its unique playstyle are the WE, therefore the questions I have is this;

How do you create an army that can utlise MSU while being able to deal with steadfast units using; army fluff, magic, movement, combat and shooting in 8th without breaking the game?

Keen to keep the case study on WE but that that does not mean the ideas can't be applied to other armies either. The idea is not to pigeon whole any army into a particular playstyle as this is bad for replayability but rather allow an army to use MSU tactics as an option in the current meta.

It is harder to come up with ideas than to put them down, so just try and provide constructive critism that is so often seen on these boards rather than simply bagging peoples ideas.

Top line options
All WE units are stubborn in forests
Gladeguard bows effect all WE units carry bows
WE do not suffer ill effects from forests and instead treat them as open terrain

Eternal Guard

- Increase staying ability, gain steadfast and a decent save. This allows them to at the very least survive multiple rounds of combat head to head. This option you could maintain smaller units but not be in danger of breaking anytime soon, keeps the points up so you can spam hordes of them.

- Rules could be steadfast and unbreakable when within 6” of a forest

- Reduce points dramatically to allow for masses of ranks that can endure high casualties, standard horde option but not very fluffy for WE.
Dryads

- Increase unit size and allow them to rank up. This allows them to gain steadfast from ranks and become a generic combat unit; effectively taking the easy option.

- Or maintain them as skirmishers but give them a special rule making up for the lack of ranks. This will allow the unit sizes to stay small and maintain the play style WE players enjoy, also make their ward save 5+ standard even versus magical attacks....or simply give them regeneration.

- Special rule maintain steadfast when within a forest or within 10” of Treemen/Treemen Ancient, you could extend this steadfast ability to Treekin also – effectively forests spirits are steadfast if within 10” an Ancient Tree. Increase unit size of Dryads to 20 which gives staying power without the option to go death star horde. Dryads can now be used as small flanking units or a solid anvil if you decide to not include Eternal Guard.

- Another option that was mentioned somewhere was giving Dryads to ability to switch between skirmish and rank and file – Interesting concept

War Dancers

- Shock troops, high damage output with incredible defence but limited to small units only (i.e. max 10)

- War Dancers should be support troops that win combats through flank charges. Highly versatile stubborn in Forests but if caught out against rank and file they are dead meat.

- Bonuses versus lone units and direct support to dealing with steadfast hordes, either through shear killing power or some special ability. At the moment like a number or WE specials and rare you just don’t get value for the points you spend.

Wild Riders

- Fast durable cavalry that deal deadly damage on the charge but struggle in drawn out combats, flank and rare support for EG , Dryads, Treemen, Treekin that can take a beating. At the moment they are fast but that is all....

- Potential to become ethereal

- Other suggestions include monstrous but WE have Trees, eagles and warhawks (should become monstrous)


Shooting

Glade guard

- Already do a decent job as are, the only thing they could have would be ‘arrow’ upgrades that could help during deployment to funnel troops into areas they way not wish to go (poison, magical etc etc)

- Operate more effectively in small mobile units, fast manoeuvrable and hard to catch but fall over in HH combat.


Way Watchers

- Character and High armour assassins, again used to force you opponent to make sub optimal decisions during movement and deployment. They need to pack a punch to send shivers down you opponent’s spine, otherwise they will just march straight through you and not engage your durable units.


Magic
- Focus should be on manipulating the battlefield and buffing/hexing units rather than direct damage.
- Create and move forests
- Teleport units between forests
- Enhance bow shooting
- Hinder enemies movement
- Protection from warmachine spam
- Ultimately force opponent to fight you where you want to

Weakness
- Direct damage ability, no 6th spell that blows up whole units – Athel Loren should be passive aggressive




To get the discussion going:

New Look WE

Eternal Guard
- 5+/5+ save (4+/5+ with shields)
- -1 hit range attacks
- Stubborn and if within 6” of a forest unbreakable
- Unit Size 10+, effective unit size 20-30
- Semi elite infantry -HWS, spear or AHW only (keeps them st s3 to keep killing power in line with their durability)

(Standard of Eternal: Counts as having two additional ranks for CR)

Dryads
- Forest Spirit (regeneration save), Stubborn if within 10” of a Treemen
- Magical Attacks, Flammable
- Skirmish, fear
- Unit Size increase 20 Max
GladeGuard
- Remain same
- Option to upgrade to poison arrows

Glade Riders
- GG bows
- Option to upgrade to poison arrows
- Swiftstride
- -1 hit range attacks
Waywatchers
- Sniper
- Scout/Skirmish
- Armour Piercing
- 2 shots (no multi shot penalty)
- S4 bows short range
Wild Riders
- Ethereal
- Swift Stride
- Regeneration
- Fear
- Heroic Charge (Terror +1A +2S on the charge)
War Dancers
- -1 to hit when in HTH combat
- -1 Leadership per round of combat (accumulative) when in the rare or flank of an enemy unit with greater than 3 ranks (so if you are in combat for three rounds and they have 3 ranks or more -3 ld in that third round)
- Keep the dances for flexibility in combat
Warhawk Riders
- Monstrous infantry and fly over attack
- Swiftstride

Treemen Ancient
- Athel Loren only
- Lvl 2 can be upgraded to lvl 3
100 pts Sprites

Spell Weaver
- Athel Loren
- Beasts
- Life
- Shadow
100pts sprites 100pts magic items

Spell Singer
- Athel Loren
- Life
- Beasts
50pts sprites 50pts magic items

[Wesser]

Play Brets.

I usually field 8-9 smaller lances in a 2500 pts game coupled wih a few peasants and pegasi riders

Thats perfectly viable


Empire can do it too. Aside from detachments units of flaggies, demigryphs and outriders all work well as small units. Halberdiers/greatsword hordes are by no means mandatory to win.



There's no real issue making MSU work competitively

[Pavisel]

yeah, to me, MSU effectiveness is not lost in 8th at all. each unit needs a specific job, and sticks to it. one or two hard hitting units, a fast flanker or two, and a unit to draw the enemy to combat (the 'bait' unit). I think WE could do well with wild riders and a tree man as the hard hitters, glade riders and war hawks as the fast, annoying units, eternal guard to move to the center of the field and draw the enemy out, with glade guard to provide shooty support; maybe some war dancers to provide support to the EG. it's all about the movement and combined attacks of your units. you MUST outmaneuver the enemy, and you MUST coordinate charges to deal the most damage. it works well for my HE. matter of fact, I think I will try this out next week with some woodies...

[Antipathy]

It is a bit long winded but I have begun an attempt at making the Lore of Athel Loren on the scale of the BRB, Lore of Vampires and Hashut. Although not got the specifics worked out, like casting requirements etc, the core ideas are there

.In addition these are following abilities for casters
Ariel - l4, Loremaster Life and Athel Loren
Orion - level 1, uses beasts, or may be uses during autumn at the height of power, using athel loren, automatically knowing call of the hunt and one other random spell.
weaver - level 3, level 4 option, can use beasts, life, athel loren, shadow, death, but highest level caster (or ariel) must use athel loren.
singer - as above, but no death
Treeman - upgrade to l1, athel loren or shadow (lord choice, same ld as branchwraith)
branchwraith - upgrade to l1 or 2, athel loren or shadow
drycha - l2 shadow
durthu - l1, athel loren
naiad - upgrade to l1 or 2, heavens or athel loren (Cleansing waters becoming its signature)
Daith - l2, lore of metal
Naieth the Prophetess - Level 3, Can choose between Athel Loren or Heavens

As for the lore of athel loren -
Attribute - treesinging is a special rule now attributed to treemen. It allows nearby (12") forest to move 2d6 inches, or an enemy unit within 12" of that forest to take D6 initiative tests per rank or suffer a wound and count as in difficult terrain. Casting any spell from the lore successfully allows you to automatically treesing.
Signature - woodbind if a friendly unit is ever partially within a forest until the start of the casters next phase, leave a suitable marker at the side of the unit for each casualty it suffers during each phase. At the start of the subsequent phase, roll a dice for each marker. On a 5+ model regains a wound as per regrowth. If the unit is killed remove all markers. All markers are immediately discarded after rolling, regardless of success and are lost should the unit ever leave the wood for whatever reason.
1 - call of the hunt - target one friendly unit nearby, must immediately declare a charge if able to, and can reroll distance dice. Empower ability doubles cost, but targets all nearby friendly units. Orions call of the hunt automatically uses empowered version. no ill effects if failed.
2 - brackenwall - summon spell, creates a short obstacle, all forest spirits and wood elves can move without penalty or damage, all other units take d6 s3 hits per rank when moving over and d6 s3 hits during the magic phase if they are in base contact with it.
3- hidden eyes - remember the dwarf rune from 6th edition first book? allowed you to stay hidden (couldnt be targetted) until it took its first action, or an enemy moved within 3inches. applies here. Waywatchers deploying in a forest have this as a special rule anyway.
4 - cleansing waters - magical vortex augment and hex. Can target friendlies or enemies, remains in play works exactly purple suns rip vortex. However instead of doing damage, it automatically and immediately dispels and removes the effects of any and all hexes (on friendly troops only) and augments (on enemy troops only).
5 - reclamation - target any point on the battlefield. Place a citadel forest or similar size. Alternatively, target building. On a 5+, destroy it and replace with a forest. If the building was an objective, unless it is actually captured by the enemy, then it counts as being held by the caster.
6 - gale of pine crag. affects all battlefield, huge casting cost. enemy movement speed is halved, flyers must pass s test to fly, enemy shooting must reroll to hit if successful (if enemy can reroll misses, then these effects cancel out), and any and all enemy scatter dice (even those of the magical spells) must be rerolled if the caster decides. Immediately after casting, roll a d3, this shows how long the pspell is cast for. An empowered spell allows it to become remains in play - only when the spell is ended for whatever reason (dispel, etc), do you roll the d3 on the empowered spell. I am thinking of making it a 18+ to cast and 23+ to empower.

In addition to that is the briarweave, an enchanted item, rather than armour now, working as before. However it also contains throne of vines as an innate bound spell on the caster and his unit, which hits at s4 if the caster is within a wood. Wand of Wych Elm stays as is. Royal Standard of Ariel now makes the unit immune to hex spells, grants mr2 to wielder and unit and mr1 and fear to all units within 12", for 75 points.

I think that the lores are now suited well to actually enabling msu to happen, and mesh well, however you build the army.You can either build typical blocks thanks to beasts, life and shadow, or use msu with loren, shadow and death. MSU is about controlling the movement phase, and you can do them all brilliantly with loren, aided by shadow for withering and movement reduction, while death takes on large blocks of enemies and characters. Throw in Heavens for rerolls and windblast (a brilliantly fun unique spell), or comet/chain lightning to to destroy gunlines, and metal for sniping/ap shooting.Here is another thought as well, give each bow equipped charscter and champion (possibly not wizards) some form of either multiple shot and/or the ability to choose to use the sniper special rule. With gg bows on all units, this translates into people wanting to stay thefudge away from glade riders and warhawks, while gg pour out a torrent of shots. All heroes and lords become machine gunners (4 s4 shots esch for highborn if it is as simple as multiple shots (attacks), or one bs6 sniper shot).It would quickly translate into massed skirmishing/fast cav armies where people try and get as many within 15 inches to potentially snipe a battle line to death.Waywatches, if they get the multishots (attack) and sniper (possibly killing blow only on sniper), could prove deadly as well. Give them 2 attacks and additional ccw, while wardancers become s4, and can dance continuously, with new dances - while they get extra attack, 4+ ward in cc, killing blow and s4 all the time in cc, while they get more esoteric dances - perhaps one that stops wizards from casting, or stops step up from occuring, or automatically disrupting enemy units etc.Rather than having them update the armies rules and capabilities to match the new ruleset, why not remove the strengths of the new (well 8th edition) ruleset from enemies.However I would also like their to be some form of conventional 'build' army - eternal guard ranking up decently, stubborn as standard, possibly 5+ ward as standard, wild riders available with some form of heavy and/or monstrous cav upgrade, ability to take javelins as well.

[Antipathy]

Edit - sorry, double post. The horrendous typing from a phone system this site has set up is making long posts unreadable, and seriusly making me doubt spending my time here. I will clean this up later, when I can get to my laptop, but until then, you have to make the staff aware of the problem.