Massacres and you - dealing with being one shot wiped off the table

[IcedCrow]

It's been a while since I was last massacred. In fact it has only ever happened one time, and it was my first game ever back in the 90s when I was playing undead and my opponent was fielding a Bretonnian army with the sword of cournne on a flying emperor dragon that landed in the midst of my army and caused the whole thing to go poof along with a book of ashur'ed mage with banishment.

So yesterday was our first league game and I was up against chaos with my tomb kings. I've been playing a while, and my opponent was a buddy we just got into the hobby. This was his third game ever.

We rolled up a wizard tower which gave him access to all spells from his lore for his wizard: Death. Of course with death comes the Purple Sun. We both fielded level 2 wizards. Mine was my heirophant which I gave a 4+ ward to like I always do but no points for magic defense.

He ends up on the side with the wizard tower and claims it to get all six spells.

The game goes pretty good until Turn 4. Up until then I've had to deal with dispelling the purple sun thrown on six dice every turn. Turn two he irresistable forced it off but then rolled miscast on himself and had it center on him, but chaos has high INIT and so it didn't do anything.

Turn four it went off again on a 25 (the big version). I rolled bad on the dispel. Now up until this point, the game is pretty tight. I had light of deathed his lord on manticore, killing the manticore and the lord joined a unit of marauders nearby. I had also just run his knights off with a flank charge from my skeletons. He had killed my sphinx with his knights and a skeleton.

My tomb guard were preparing to engage his marauders with his lord (and my tomb king was in my unit so that would have been fun) and his warriors were still a ways off. All in all it was looking like a good game but going to the tomb kings on a minor victory.

Then the purple sun hit.

He rolled a 10 on the artillery dice which meant it moved in a 30" line and was the big template. It hit every one of my models except for my catapult. With an init of 2 and my characters at a 3... the game was over.

Now granted there were some things that I could have done better, plus the odds of what happened happening were slim. He had to:

1) get the wizard tower
2) get the side with the wizard tower
3) have survived his first miscast (he rolled a 7 which basically ended his magic phase)
4) have survived when it went off on him the first time (he failed, but league rules grant a re-roll per game for painted units to encourage painting so the re-roll saved him)
5) roll an 8 or a 10 on the artillery dice to shred my entire army and kill the heirophant and tomb king to cause the rest of the army to crumble.

Of course all of that happened but the odds were bad.

On my end, I failed to bring a dispel scroll (that's not happening again) and should have used the spinx to fly to the back and deal with the wizard, but instead kept him as a support unit to try to outflank the knights (that part worked in a way, he caused the knights to charge him and then get flanked by the skeletons which ran his knights off)

I still have a bad taste in my mouth after that though but I am chalking it up to that's part of the game and if a wizard has access to those spells, he becomes the #1 priority to kill. Still... that was my first time getting rolled off the table since my very first game way back when.

[Memnos]

So... Why was your army in a big straight line from the tower when you saw he had Purple Sun?

[IcedCrow]

Because the alternative would have been to rush at him and skeletons rushing at chaos warriors is going to give you about the same result. Staggering the army out so the units can't support each other against a chaos army is going to give you the same conclusion. Rushing forward to meet chaos on its terms will also give you the same conclusion.

The way the table was set up he was sending his units at me one at a time. Undead can handle chaos like that.

[Little Wolf]

Yeah - those number 6 spells can be really, really nasty, up to the point where they are no fun. However, the chances that they actually get pulled off are slim too. My gaming group often discusses them.

Consensus seems to be that they're not necessarily unfair (as it often takes several tries of lots of power dice to actually get them in) but they're not really fun either (as it can make someone loose the game in seconds without them really making any mistakes).

[Morkash]

I stopped wondering when I read "purple sun thrown on six dice every turn". Reminds me why I usually play comped when playing competitive and with Gentleman's Agreement against friends.

Viewed as a whole situation it won't happen again any time soon, because there were quite a few unlikely events combined:
- Your army was in a line, which was a tactical fault especially if you know he has PS.
- He seemed to have enough dice to cast it every turn. A bad roll for the Winds of magic or bad rolls for casting and nothing (or at least less harm) happens.
- You had no Dispel Scroll. You said it yourself, but I also learned this the hard way. Always bring one!
- He rolled a 10 for the distance, which is unlikely. Following Murphy's Law, I've never rolled more than a 3 for my Hellheart and used it in several games now.
- You rolled the Wizard tower
- He rolled the right side to get the Wizard tower

I do not want to start another discussion on comp, but under the rules I play this would have been averted in several ways:
- Look out, Sir! against Dwellers, Infernal Gateway, Purple Sun, Dreadful 13th and other instant killers
- A maximum of 4 dice per spell
- No more than 4 spells from the Lore of Death/Shadow/Hashut
- Maximum of 10 dice per magic phase
- Sometimes, no IR on spells with a casting value of 14 or more

All of these would have more or less prevented the situation you stated. The third prevents loremaster (he would've rolled for 4 spells so he still might have gotten PS) while the first would've given your characters a 83% chance to survive. The second would've completely outruled that he rolled 25 in the first place, he could count on IR if the fifth rule isn't used.

[NitrosOkay]

If your entire army can be hit by a single purple sun, I think you should've taken the alternative and taken slightly disadvantaged combats. I play undead and know your pain but even so.

I do not want to start another discussion on comp, but under the rules I play this would have been averted in several ways:
- Look out, Sir! against Dwellers, Infernal Gateway, Purple Sun, Dreadful 13th and other instant killers
- A maximum of 4 dice per spell
- No more than 4 spells from the Lore of Death/Shadow/Hashut
- Maximum of 10 dice per magic phase
- Sometimes, no IR on spells with a casting value of 14 or more

Shouldn't you get a look out sir against Purple Sun? It's a template. Dwellers hits every model in the unit instead.

I don't really like any of those suggestions. That's seems like telling anyone who wants to invest a lot of points in a good magic phase that "Nope, that's not the right way to play the game you can't do that go buy some combat blocks".

[tmarichards]

Getting wiped off the board usually happens to me once per tournament, it's never pleasant but as long as winning the game isn't the be all and end all of the game you can still get some enjoyment out of it. For myself, I like to focus on the mistakes I made and ask my opponent to break down exactly why it was so easy for them to table me (more often than not it's "I have Mournfangs, you have Glade Guard", but still...).

[IcedCrow]

lol it wouldn't have been a slight disadvantage unfortunately. I think the main thing was that my tomb king was in a line with my heirophant. He centered on the tomb king. The heirophant was 20" away but had I moved her unit up she wouldn't have been fried by it.

The Tomb King would have died anyway (rolled a 4 on his init check) and half the tomb guard unit. At that point I would have had 14 tomb guard with a tomb herald up against 20 marauders with a chaos lord, a unit of 40 spear vs a unit of 20 warriors with a BSB hero init supported by my chariots. The odds on either of those were not good. The set up was working quite well for me up until that point. The tomb guard vs marauders with his lord and my tomb king would have been a fun fight. We both had killing blow. He had init.

(Neither list was power gamed)

The big things I learned from this are to always have a scroll on hand now and to find a way to either be past 24" (which sucks as most of the spells have a 24" range so I won't be able to buff my king's unit) and to not be in a line from him.

We have a couple players that go magic heavy that will have the purple sun against me, I've just been very lucky to either shut it down or not have it tear 30" through my army and end the game in one go ever. (I've been purpled sunned before but not like that)

Learning experience. I can no longer say, however, that I don't see rookies massacring people who've played for years in this edition

[logan054]

lus the odds of what happened happening were slim. He had to:

1) get the wizard tower
2) get the side with the wizard tower
3) have survived his first miscast (he rolled a 7 which basically ended his magic phase)
4) have survived when it went off on him the first time (he failed, but league rules grant a re-roll per game for painted units to encourage painting so the re-roll saved him)
5) roll an 8 or a 10 on the artillery dice to shred my entire army and kill the heirophant and tomb king to cause the rest of the army to crumble.

Of course all of that happened but the odds were bad.

out of those things the only thing with low odds is rolling the wizard tower, even so whats the chance of rolling a 6 or a double on 2D6? surviving a miscast is pretty likely, I think the only really issue here is losing your level of death (and the death itself is still only a 5+ chance, its very likely for him to pass the I test (and he can actually be made immune to lore of deaths spells for 10pts). Now even if he had just killed a single unit how many powerdice do you think he would have gained from killing it? how many dispel dice would of had left? is it likely he could have just snipped you heirophant with death magic (getting more powerdice) and debuffed your near by units?

Death is a dirty dirty lore

- Look out, Sir! against Dwellers, Infernal Gateway, Purple Sun, Dreadful 13th and other instant killers
- A maximum of 4 dice per spell
- No more than 4 spells from the Lore of Death/Shadow/Hashut
- Maximum of 10 dice per magic phase
- Sometimes, no IR on spells with a casting value of 14 or more

Personally I would remove the IR effect from spell casting, just keep the miscast, that way you can throw your 6 dice, it can still be stopped no matter what you roll and gives the spells more a risk and thus stop people throwing 6 dice at a spell every turn, another thing you could is stop using special terrain, that is really part of the issue with the game you mentioned, its a fun idea but I think it can be a bit silly, LoS is a good idea, I would also allow magic resistance saves against those spells so they don't wipe out units (maybe even full wardsaves).

[Karak Norn Clansman]

Dealing with massacres? That's no problem since I've been massacred many times, although not before turn 4 or in one turn of magic. I've also struck at the bottom-most ranking on several tournaments, although this record streak have been broken as of lately.

I have some tips for those who have trouble dealing with crushing defeats on the table top, maybe because they are winner-heads: Take it with a smile and some chit-chat with the opponent, perhaps with some talk about noteworthy conversions in his army or some good painting. Congratulate him on his victory and talk a bit about odd moments in the match, especially the one big breaking point where large chunks of your army run away or gets slaughtered. There are more games and thus there are more opportunities of victory for you. Take it in stride and laugh rather than glower and glare. Learn and improve.

For those of you who achieve such dastardly massacres, recognize the points in the game where it might have swung to any side and don't hesitate to point out potentially unbalanced parts of the game (such as Purple Sun) which certainly acted in your favour. Try to cheer your opponent up if he's sullened down by the massacre, and talk on even terms about such things as conversions and painting, or how you each handle Dark Elves or Daemons of Chaos. Take a mental note of the efficient parts of your army list but consider also to refrain from using grossly overpowered spells or units that might ruin your and your opponents game and turn them into quite boring battles.

[IcedCrow]

No doubt. You have to be a good sport. My opponent said he felt bad and like a dick after the game and I told him not to think that, that it was part of the game and we went down the pointers of the perfect storm that that had to had occur for the result to happen.

Don't sour the game on your opponent, that's for sure. It wasn't entirely the spell that did me in, it was my own mistakes forming up in a perfect line, not having the scroll, etc...

In our league also double 1s are a miscast and take priority over double 6. Double 6 are just IF. This way there is a little more risk in throwing six dice. The spell that did me in was not IF it was cast exactly on a 25 and I failed to roll high enough to dispel it.

[Morkash]

Personally I would remove the IR effect from spell casting, just keep the miscast, that way you can throw your 6 dice, it can still be stopped no matter what you roll and gives the spells more a risk and thus stop people throwing 6 dice at a spell every turn, another thing you could is stop using spelling terrain, that is really part of the issue with the game you mentioned, its a fun idea but I think it can be a bit silly, LoS is a good idea, I would also allow magic resistance saves against those spells so they don't wipe out units (maybe even full wardsaves).

Good point, I forgot that one. You still miscast on double 6, but the enemy can dispel.


On the Purple Sun / Look out, Sir: True once again, there's a LoS! against PS anyways, the comp rule works against Gateway, Dwellers, Dreadful 13th and Final Transmutation.

Dealing with massacres? That's no problem since I've been massacred many times, although not before turn 4 or in one turn of magic. I've also struck at the bottom-most ranking on several tournaments, although this record streak have been broken as of lately.

Virtual high five, that describes my previous tournaments perfectly well. Proudly defending the last quarter. I fully agree with your post!

[NitrosOkay]

I think the magic rules are alright. Spells like Purple Sun and Dwellers Below exist to help counteract the tendency towards giant deathstar units that 8th makes viable. I believe they shouldn't gib multi-wound characters though, a wound with no saves of any kind allowed would be enough. Perhaps D3 wounds to monstrous cavalry/infantry so Ogres are affected fairly. I think purple sun probably shouldn't travel as far as it does as well, at least dwellers only hits one unit.

[IcedCrow]

That I can agree with. Outright killing multi wound characters and traveling are what makes it so heinously evil.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Getting wiped off the board usually happens to me once per game. Doesn't matter much as long as I get to do something and the opposition takes off piles of models, too.

[Urgat]

Because the alternative would have been to rush at him and skeletons rushing at chaos warriors is going to give you about the same result.

Still don't see why your whole army was lined up on the tower, to be honest. Where was that tower exactly? It can't have been on your flank because it was on the other side, so what? Seriously, the guy throws 6 dice at PS every turn, but still by turn 4 your army was positioned so it would have optimal effect? You're going to have to explain me how any alternative was worth than that, sounds like you did it on purpose, to be quite frank.
As for how I deal with massacres? I've been massacred for a whole edition (5th ed) and half of 6th ed till I figured my army out, so I got used to it. I deal with it by shrugging it out and asking for a rematch

[logan054]

I think the magic rules are alright. Spells like Purple Sun and Dwellers Below exist to help counteract the tendency towards giant deathstar units that 8th makes viable. I believe they shouldn't gib multi-wound characters though, a wound with no saves of any kind allowed would be enough. Perhaps D3 wounds to monstrous cavalry/infantry so Ogres are affected fairly. I think purple sun probably shouldn't travel as far as it does as well, at least dwellers only hits one unit.

Problem is they counteract pretty much any unit regardless it its size, you have spells like dreaded 13th actually pushing players towards larger units so they can actually get across the table. They don't really add to the game balance in the current form, its basically who ever gets lucky first dominates the magic phase and will more than likely win.

[IcedCrow]

Still don't see why your whole army was lined up on the tower, to be honest. Where was that tower exactly? It can't have been on your flank because it was on the other side, so what? Seriously, the guy throws 6 dice at PS every turn, but still by turn 4 your army was positioned so it would have optimal effect? You're going to have to explain me how any alternative was worth than that, sounds like you did it on purpose, to be quite frank.
As for how I deal with massacres? I've been massacred for a whole edition (5th ed) and half of 6th ed till I figured my army out, so I got used to it. I deal with it by shrugging it out and asking for a rematch

It was the mountain pass scenario. he was on one end fo the table in the corner in a wizard tower. i was across the table bunkered in a corner waiting for him to walk to me, while I was shooting at him with my catapult, casket, and bows.

The purple sun can be cast anywhere on the table.

My alternative would have been to start rushing at his army which i did not want to do so yes... it was done on purpose. I bunkered in a corner to make him come to me, and the terrain made it so that his army was going to hit me unit at a time so that I could deal with it unit at a time. This tactic was working well until the purple sun ended my game.

As chaos is my primary army, as I've tore apart tomb kings many times, and as I've seen chaos tear apart tomb kings many time, the LAST thing I wanted to do was get closer to him. I needed to get as many turns of shooting and casketing in as possible before he hit me. Tomb Kings can deal with chaos warriors and knights if there is a combo charge, but can rarely do anything straight up one on one.

[NitrosOkay]

Problem is they counteract pretty much any unit regardless it its size, you have spells like dreaded 13th actually pushing players towards larger units so they can actually get across the table. They don't really add to the game balance in the current form, its basically who ever gets lucky first dominates the magic phase and will more than likely win.

Dwellers kills a lot less models when it's used on small units, making it a lot less effective.

Dreaded 13th is a 7th edition spell.

I don't see 'who gets lucky first' dominating games, but then again I play at 2,999 points where you still only get 2d6 power dice so magic isn't really as powerful as at lower point levels. People who throw six dice at super spells every turn lose more than not though, because either it miscasts and they lose the rest of their magic phase or their wizard, or it gets scrolled and they lose their magic phase, or it fails to cast, or (unlikely) they get it off and it really doesn't impact the game as much as casting a few smaller spells would.

I could hurl six dice at purple sun which can misfire and kill my 200 point wizard even if the miscast doesn't (which cripples my magic defence), or roll a 2 on the artillery dice and go nowhere.

Or I could cast invocation of nehek, vanhel's danse and hellish vigour. Or soulblight, caress of laniph and spirit leech. Those combinations usually effect a game a lot more than single purple sun (unless outrageous unlikely things happen as in example above)

[Urgat]

There was other alternatives, like redeploying. You bunkered in a corner (you bunkered in a line?). The risk was enormous, and you knew it. Chaos is my primary opponent too (it as always been, for as long as I've played WFB), I play goblin so I'm not better off than your skellies, and I would have never done what you did (well I'm lying, I'd have tried it during 5th, and i'd have lost just like you). What were your lists like (especially his)?
Not saying that PS isn't a filthy affair, btw, don't get me wrong, just trying to understand, because I don't get what you mean by "it can be cast anywhere". It's a vortex, it starts from the sorcerer.