Ws 0

[Scalebug]

Yes there is, what the unwantedbeing said could for clarity had been done with a quote;

"Giants do not attack in the same way as other creatures..." (Warriors of chaos, p.65, because that was the book I had within reach)

That there is "no universal truth in warhammer" might be true, but it doesn't automatically mean everyone and his dog's opinion and interpretation of the rules is correct...

And in this case; you are wrong. You are free to play however you like, but don't argue that you have a valid interpretation of the rules in the book, because you don't.

[GodlessM]

It can also be done with the vampire counts coven throne and battle of wills. In the one game that it's happened thus far, we went with the models are hit automatically and only hit with their attacks on a 6 as we couldn't find anywhere that it said they no longer get their attacks.

That's how our group have played it as well. It can happen in the Loot and Pillage scenario too.

[darheresy]

Yes there is, what the unwantedbeing said could for clarity had been done with a quote;

"Giants do not attack in the same way as other creatures..." (Warriors of chaos, p.65, because that was the book I had within reach)

That there is "no universal truth in warhammer" might be true, but it doesn't automatically mean everyone and his dog's opinion and interpretation of the rules is correct...

And in this case; you are wrong. You are free to play however you like, but don't argue that you have a valid interpretation of the rules in the book, because you don't.

Still does not say the giant cannot have frenzy.

True and that is what this forum is for. So you can see what other people think and get the interpertation that follows the rules the best and makes the most sense.

I could be wrong but as I said before it says in the rulebook that you roll your number of attacks and consult the chart afterwards. And later on they explain that a 6 is always a hit. To say that WS0 prevents them from rolling their attacks is nowhere to be found. That is your interpertation of the rules and I don't agree.

[AMWOOD co]

Still does not say the giant cannot have frenzy.

True, the giant can have Frenzy. He would gain Berserk Rage and Immune to Psychology but everything else would be useless.

True and that is what this forum is for. So you can see what other people think and get the interpertation that follows the rules the best and makes the most sense.

I could be wrong but as I said before it says in the rulebook that you roll your number of attacks and consult the chart afterwards. And later on they explain that a 6 is always a hit. To say that WS0 prevents them from rolling their attacks is nowhere to be found. That is your interpertation of the rules and I don't agree.

Valid, but circular. You are using the same argument you used back on post 8, which theunwantedbeing pointed out a flaw for (post 9, Frenzying Chariots) and you decided to argue special pleading (ie. it works for everything except that, post 13) without support from the rules. Now you go back to the original argument, meaning you've come full circle without refuting the point.

So, I would ask, is there any reason to reject theunwantedbeings interpretation (post 2) based on an internal inconsistency? That is, does his method lead to an absurdity or contradiction?

[darheresy]

Valid, but circular. You are using the same argument you used back on post 8, which theunwantedbeing pointed out a flaw for (post 9, Frenzying Chariots) and you decided to argue special pleading (ie. it works for everything except that, post 13) without support from the rules. Now you go back to the original argument, meaning you've come full circle without refuting the point.

So, I would ask, is there any reason to reject theunwantedbeings interpretation (post 2) based on an internal inconsistency? That is, does his method lead to an absurdity or contradiction?

He is giving his houseruling to the problem to get away from problems like the chariot and my houserule is different. "If a statline do not have a value in a characteristic it can never have one." So if the chariot have "-" in Attack and WS it does not matter if it get frenzy or speed of light since it can not gain Attacks or Weaponskill. This way we avoid absurd things like chariots with frenzyattacks and also if you read the book it has equipment halberd, so if it would get an attack it would have strenght 6 since it is wielding a halberd and also do the horses so they would have strenght 5.

That way normal units can still use the rules how I see them and still hit on 6's while fighting with WS0. But as I said, Everyone see the game differently and if it makes sense with chariots that fights in a frenzy with it's halberd then according to the rules there is nothing that prevents it. But I see it more that it cannot happen but normal units in extreme fear and drenched in gore from a nurgle unit still wields there weapon in panic and just maybe they hit something.

Nothing in the rules says that units with WS0 cannot strike but something says they can since you roll your attacks. I can see why some people say that it's not on the chart so they should not be able to hit. It is just how you see the rules.

[AntaresCD]

Nothing in the rules says that units with WS0 cannot strike but something says they can since you roll your attacks. I can see why some people say that it's not on the chart so they should not be able to hit. It is just how you see the rules.

Your primary assumption in this is that with WS0 you still roll to attack. As a number of us have stated, there are grounds to state that you don't even roll (either no attacks allowed or you automatically miss), in which case the clause that a natural 6 always hits is irrelevant as there was no roll. And before you state you always roll to attack, no you don't, as there are plenty of attacks in close combat that can automatically hit (and some rare situations that automatically miss) which bypasses the need to roll. There is further precedent that when a roll is bypassed due to an "automatic" (see Poisoned Attacks and Killing Blow special rules for examples) that a rule that refers to the natural die roll is bypassed as well.

[Scalebug]

. It is just how you see the rules.

...only that it happens to be the correct one...

You are perfectly entitled to have house-rules, nobody (but your opponent in an actual game not agreeing with them) is stopping you, but you have to understand that they are not what the rulebook says. It is simple as that.

The second thing you have to understand is that whenever someone asks a rules question on a forum like this, they are generally interested in getting an answer in accordance to what they rules say, Random Q Randomson's house-rules used in his gaming group on the other side of the planet is more often than not of no interest.

Your right to believe and say anything does not make anything you believe or say right.

[darheresy]

Sorry. Just forget it. I tried to take the houserule of theunwantedbeing and replace it with my own that solved the same problem to show more then one way and also to answer AMWOOD co. Maybe I failed. Have nothing to do with the stated question.

I played it like the people in post 3,5 and 22 for the same reason they do. That is how we saw it best.

It can be read that WS0 don't get attacks but it can be read the other way to.

[theunwantedbeing]

I agree that your house rule also works.
So we now have two house rules to suggest to other people

Ws0 cannot attack
-insert a "to a minimum of 1" clause to prevent most of the ws0 unable to attack issues

Ws0 can attack
-do not allow stats of - to be increased

Simple enough.

[AMWOOD co]

Nothing in the rules says that units with WS0 cannot strike but something says they can since you roll your attacks. I can see why some people say that it's not on the chart so they should not be able to hit. It is just how you see the rules.

This doesn't really address the issue fully as theunwantedbeing did address this (The whole Stat of 0 issue - no WS means no ability to hit in close combat). Still, I do agree that it isn't spelled out vertbatim.

"If a statline do not have a value in a characteristic it can never have one." So if the chariot have "-" in Attack and WS it does not matter if it get frenzy or speed of light since it can not gain Attacks or Weaponskill. This way we avoid absurd things like chariots with frenzyattacks and also if you read the book it has equipment halberd, so if it would get an attack it would have strenght 6 since it is wielding a halberd and also do the horses so they would have strenght 5.

Well, the absurdity that the chariot body or horses wielding a halberd aside, the idea of not allowing stats that are at 0 (printed) to increase is a good one. Thanks for that.