The Rivalry of the Chaos Gods, Old or New Interpretation?

[Shadey]

Alternative title: Why it's ok for Skulltaker to be down for some Neshi luvin'.

A few editions ago of Warhammer the traditional rivalry of the Chaos gods was shook up. Your army could suddenly include Slaaneshi daemons happily cavorting around angry Khornate bloodletters, and Nurgle daemons could let rip next to Tzeentchian horrors who wouldn't bat an eye. This new interpretation is often described disdainfully by veterans as the new “fluffy bunny Chaos”, or something to that effect. I want to show you why it actually makes MORE sense than the old rivalaries.

In short, because it is more chaotic.

Nowhere is the new standing officially portrayed that all Chaos daemons get along with all other Chaos daemons. For brevity I am going to stick with Khorne and Slaanesh. Any Slaaneshi army is capable of allying with any Khorne army, it does happen. That does not mean that all Slaaneshi daemons get along with Khorne, it doesn't even mean that those particular Slaaneshi daemons like red 'meat'.

Each daemon has a modicum of personality, generally the more powerful the more complete a personality they have though even at best it does not tend to match a regular mortal. A friend put it this way: “Each daemon has a desire to bolster their deity, conflicting with a personal drive to be there towards the top, gaining power for themselves, a rather right wing take on strength of the deities daemonic society.” Which I think is a really funny and depressing commentry.

Chaos often fights against itself and it is not unheard of for a Khorne daemon to ally with a rival gods daemon in order to destroy the army of another Khorne daemon. It could be due to insult, “Graaahhh Skulltaker said I fight like a girl! Blood for the Blood God!” or it could be to further their own standing within their god's followers, or it could be just cause.

The end result is little structure for even general alliances that their gods make. Khorne and Slaanesh have a truce today, that may stop a lot of the fighting but there is always going to be some conflict. Slaanesh and Khorne might be at war here, but over there they are joining up to take on Tzeentch or to destroy a snooty Elf army. Khorne probably couldn't care less, lack of respect for any rules/truces probably goes hand in hand, even if they don't agree on specific cirumstances where the truce may or may not apply.

At any one point there would be alliances, wars and truces and it would constantly shift. It is suitably, chaotic.

That being said the gods themselves would give some structure to the standings. There was one story where Khorne was winning a war with Slaanesh who ended up suing for peace. A truce was called so we do know general truces and wars (and probably alliances) can happen.

That word, GENERAL, is the key. While today most (but not all), Slaaneshi daemons may be working with Khorne, tomorrow is a new day and most (but not all) Slaaneshi daemons could be warring with Khorne.

In the meta sense this is also good. It gives players choice and allows the daemon armies to be balanced around all of the models, rather than bloating codex/army book with choice to ensure that a player can make a balanced army ready for all comers four times over. It is also the 40k galaxy and the fantasy world in a microcosm, the background is intentionally created to facilitate almost any army (player) being able to reasonably engage any other army (player).

I did arrive at this conclusion independently but I believe that stance is pretty official now. I mention it though because I still see the odd snobbery in regards to the new take. I will just ask, what sounds chaotic to you, the mess I have described above, or a world where all Khorne daemons always, and consistently, get pissy at Slaaneshi daemons.

[Born Again]

I think the whole thing is overblown in any case. I'm not sure how things went in RT days (before my time) but when I started back in 2nd edition there was nothing stopping you fielding Bloodletters next to Daemonettes back then. Of course, there was a chance they'd run at each other and disappear to duke it out in the Warp, but you could do it. It's a matter of a special rule to represent animosity, which may be back in the next edition of the book for all we know, and if we're having things like that then should Hatred, Stupidity and Terror reappear as well? Anyway, that's the rules side of things. In terms of background, I see no reason why the Chaos Gods shouldn't form alliances. Sure, Khorne and Slaanesh may hate each other - but they both hate the mortal races. They don't buddy up to help out a mate, if they do so it's because there's a mutual benefit in it for both of them (and, in the case of Tzeentch, he probably sees a chance to stab them in the back when they're not looking). As soon as that mutual benefit disappears, so does the alliance. It's no more out of hand than Eldar and IG fighting together when it's in their interests, and killing each other the week after.

[AndrewGPaul]

As I recall, in 1st edition, Daemons of rival Powers hated one another. Obviously, this comes into effect when they face each other across the battlefield, but I can't remember if there was any effect when they were included in the same army.

The only army lists I can think of that would allow Daemons from different Powers to appear in the same force were Black Legion and Grey Knights (got to love Inquisitors wielding 1,200-point Daemon Weapons! ). In Warhammer, there was the basic Chaos army list, which predated the Realms of Chaos books and so featured generic Daemons (much like Codex: Chaos Space Marines does today) and then an army list for each Power. In 40k, you had army lists for Black Legion, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Nurgle Renegades and Tzeentch Renegades (the design philosophy changed between Slaves to Darkness which featured the first three and The Lost and the Damned, which featured the latter two).

Still, the background for both games demonstrates that the Powers will ally if appropriate. The great Chaos Incursion of 2300 in Warhammer consisted of troops following all four Powers, and Horus was possessed jointly by all four Powers in 40k.

[Shadey]

Sure, Khorne and Slaanesh may hate each other - but they both hate the mortal races. They don't buddy up to help out a mate, if they do so it's because there's a mutual benefit in it for both of them (and, in the case of Tzeentch, he probably sees a chance to stab them in the back when they're not looking). As soon as that mutual benefit disappears, so does the alliance. It's no more out of hand than Eldar and IG fighting together when it's in their interests, and killing each other the week after.

Excellent point. Which also leads me to one of AndrewGPauls point. They may well indeed hate each other, but it doesn't have to stop them forming alliances of convenience.

In addition to the Chaos incursion of 2300 and Horus, pretty much every Everchosen and Black Crusade has involved the powers co-operating right? The entire concept of Chaos Undivided also involves some form of co-existance at the very least. Undivided is something which I rather like and hate to see marginalized as it is at times.

It certainly seems reasonable, at least until you get into strawman territory with daemons running around dancing, singing and holding hands..

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

In terms of the lore (as to why daemons of different patrons are fielded alongside each other) there is no problem whatsoever. The codex still emphasises that the gods hate each other, and are in fact, in a state of near-constant warfare with one another. But considering daemons "lust after the mortal realm" where they can "dominate and destroy, conquer and corrupt, in a material universe that can be permanently changed", and also "increase the power of their master and gain worshippers of their own", its no wonder that daemons are willing to temporarily tolerate the presence of the minions of other gods during daemonic incursions for their own benefit. They still hate each other, as is represented by the "daemonic rivalry" special rule on tabletop.

[theJ]

Way I see it, both sides of the arguement are going a tad too extreme.
That no daemon would ever ally with a daemon belonging to a different god is wrong, and has always been wrong. From all the way back in RT, we've got examples of them teaming up, and I don't see that changing now.
That said, I'd say "undivided" is becoming a bit too.... "standard". All four gods teaming up 'should' be an exceedingly rare occurance, and cause of great alarm. It should not be almost every single invasion, as they are now.

Ultimately, what I'd like to see more of are "duo" armies - two of the gods teaming up. A single daemon type gets fairly boring in the long run, three or four loses focus, but two should look great together, not to mention be a serious threat fluffwise without going entirely through the roof the way undivided armies do.

[GiraffeCrab]

I always took it more that undivided was the result of indecisive power seeking mortals that wanted powers but couldn't decide which was more for them, if you became a spawn then that's what you get for to much fence sitting. I also got the impression that undivided forces were more a case of hardcore mortal guys taking the approach of "hey chaos gods, you like me a bit how about you let me burn the world/universe and you can fight over who gets my tasty tasty soul meats and who gets to rebuild it all when iv done", kindov like undivided was the mortals attempt to manipulate chaos rather than a combine effort of all four gods to achieve a goal.

Though I do seem to remember from my younger days when you had named chaos daemon princes with stats over 10 that Slaanesh hated Nurgle for being buttugly and vice versa and khorn hating tzeench because he like magic and vice versa so my opinions may be a bit dated, or deluded.

I do agree with TheJ that duo armys make more sense, after all 3 is a crowd and also because if all 4 of the major chaos gods did make a unified alliance there would be allot of pain to be wrought that probably would not be stoppable ... the gods just like making examples out of eachother and screwing eachother out of that chance to rule it all at the end.

[Born Again]

Though I do seem to remember from my younger days when you had named chaos daemon princes with stats over 10 that Slaanesh hated Nurgle for being buttugly and vice versa and khorn hating tzeench because he like magic and vice versa so my opinions may be a bit dated, or deluded.

Nurgle and Slaanesh have no particular beef with one another. It's Nurgle/ Tzeentch and Khorne/ Slaanesh that have it off the worst. Khorne also has a dislike for Tzeentch as he doesn't like magic, and he's an angry kind of fellow in any case.

[GiraffeCrab]

@bornagain, as i said it is a memory from ages ago. Haven't been in touch with anything chaos fluff wise sense virus grenades were available and sustained fire dice were all the rage, so its probably a very deluded/confused version of the actual fluff. To be honest it could be just some confusion from when I started playing long ago, my original gaming circle had people who started playing from the 80's and I do remember many a lecture about "that's what it really is" good old man style. Although I do maintain my views of undivided being the mortals attempt at using the powers of the gods rather than the gods teaming up all bro style.

Though if i am confused and wrong fair dues, its never to late to get the fluff correct xD.

[Shadey]

Way I see it, both sides of the arguement are going a tad too extreme.
That no daemon would ever ally with a daemon belonging to a different god is wrong, and has always been wrong. From all the way back in RT, we've got examples of them teaming up, and I don't see that changing now.
That said, I'd say "undivided" is becoming a bit too.... "standard". All four gods teaming up 'should' be an exceedingly rare occurance, and cause of great alarm. It should not be almost every single invasion, as they are now.

Ultimately, what I'd like to see more of are "duo" armies - two of the gods teaming up. A single daemon type gets fairly boring in the long run, three or four loses focus, but two should look great together, not to mention be a serious threat fluffwise without going entirely through the roof the way undivided armies do.

Thing is, it is common enough. They surely do bitch slap each around far more inside the realm of Chaos but we don't tend to see that. Most of the battles we see are the big invasion/incursion alliances. To use a Star Wars analogy, I saw some derisive comments in regards to ToR and the percentage of Jedi/Sith characters. Almost every player has a Force user, from seven characters I have 3 soon to be 4. That is probably an accurate representation at 50% for most players, and a terribly far cry from the tiny percentage of the Galaxies population that are suppossed to be Jedi/Sith. The thing is, player don't represent the majority of the population. Take a very generous 2 million subscribers with 8 characters each for a total of 16 million, and assume they are all Force Users. 16 million is still a tiny fraction of the quadrillions of inhabbitants, we are just not seeing the majority of the population, it is still faithful to the background. However, our stories, the Star Wars story, is not about the boring run of the mill plebes, its about the cool ones with exciting lives (lightsabers = sex), Force users or not. The same goes for the battles with the daemons. We are seeing the grander allied incursions. That is not to say a 2 god or 1 god army precludes excitement and there are certainly players who have those armies, we just don't have a accurate sampling, nor a need.

As a side note most of the armies you will see in the army books and white dwarf battle-reports are intended to show off the entire range so will tend to have all four of the gods showing up for the party. Look at player armies however and you will find a far higher ration of dual god armies.

I always took it more that undivided was the result of indecisive power seeking mortals that wanted powers but couldn't decide which was more for them, if you became a spawn then that's what you get for to much fence sitting. I also got the impression that undivided forces were more a case of hardcore mortal guys taking the approach of "hey chaos gods, you like me a bit how about you let me burn the world/universe and you can fight over who gets my tasty tasty soul meats and who gets to rebuild it all when iv done", kindov like undivided was the mortals attempt to manipulate chaos rather than a combine effort of all four gods to achieve a goal.

Though I do seem to remember from my younger days when you had named chaos daemon princes with stats over 10 that Slaanesh hated Nurgle for being buttugly and vice versa and khorn hating tzeench because he like magic and vice versa so my opinions may be a bit dated, or deluded.

I do agree with TheJ that duo armys make more sense, after all 3 is a crowd and also because if all 4 of the major chaos gods did make a unified alliance there would be allot of pain to be wrought that probably would not be stoppable ... the gods just like making examples out of eachother and screwing eachother out of that chance to rule it all at the end.

I don't agree with that first part at all and I think it is more a snobbery* born of the superficially analogous concept of not committing, “Chaos Undecided” as it were, which I otherwise really like the term, i can see the funny. Worshipping all of the gods as a unified entity or as a pantheon does not inherently represent any less of a commitment, if anything it would be more so trying to satisfy all aspects. In the end, Chaos Undivided has as much potential for depth that any of the single gods have. I would argue at least four times as much because it isn't Undivided in lieu of the gods, it is ALL of them.

That being said, I think you have a point in the second half of your paragraph. There would be people trying to use the gods but why would it be more so than any of the 'dedicated' worshippers? Could a follower not be dedicated to the perpetuation of Chaos and saluting it as a whole? Does Undivided represent more power (hence the only reason someone would commit to them all) or simply more balance?

*Not really in regards to you.

[endless]

@ the op. your interpretation is pretty much exactly as it was in the original 'Realms of Chaos'. The big four are pretty much amusing themeselves when daemons come together. Who fights who is just a diversion, almost as if it was some kind of big game that ultimatly is there to pass the time (IMHO) The division between the four is pretty much binary, hence some people's confusion between Slaanesh and Tzeentch facing off against Khorne (who has a sorceror on the cover of Slaves to Darkness). Its pretty much the opposition of the lust for life, as portrayed by Tzeentch and Slaanesh versus the veneration of death, Nurgle and Khorne. It does break down, however, when you look closely at what any of them represent to a human being. Nurgle's joyous acceptance of stagnation can only function if one takes enjoyment from existence, Tzeentch's desire for change can only come from an agressive fight against the status quo. Ultimately all four powers feed each other, it IS the game which is important.
As for Chaos undivided, I feel that GW have never really managed to express its attractionand its true power well. The original Black Legion background suggested it, but that's long gone in favour of dumbass Abadonen and all the other stuff I'd really rather they hadn't done. (goes away muttering about 2nd ed 40k sucking...)

[Shadey]

I agree completely.

I too have seen the grounds for multiple interpretations of which god hates which.