New Background in 6e Rulebook

[Idaan]

Come on, there's bound to be a lot of new fluff developments included, and we've only heard a rumour about the Emperor protecting the Tau. I know some people already have it, so please spoil us or at least tease us. Don't waste your time arguing whether allies/universal psychic powers/hull points/etc ruin the game.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I've been eagerly anticipating the 6e lore developments, whilst also praying that the Tau Empire being a protectorate of Ultramar is completely false.

So bring them on!

[TimLeeson]

Thanks for making this thread, been sick to death of hearing about the rules changes - i couldnt care less about the rules, I just want to know about the fluff changes - if any.

[Mirbeau]

The op in this thread said he'd post background stuff in detail today or tommmorow, he's posted pictures of the book so does have it. 'Spose we'll have to wait til then? http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.ne...=22683&page=22

But, there do seem to be changes made evident by the rules. The picture he posted of the allies chart (in the thread, somewhere round p11 I think...) shows codex space marines and tau are battle-brothers, the tau do not enjoy that benefit with any other imperial faction. The op hinted that this was deliberate, and elaborated upon in the fluff. So that rumour about the tau and marines... might actually hold some truth... Which is suprising...

I'll wait to see how it is implemented before making my mind up, but it's a change I really don't like the sound of.

Blood Angels and Dark Eldar can't buddy up, though other imps and d'eldar can, so perhaps there'll be a new conflict mentioned in the fluff between these two (or maybe it's the Fabus Bile connection?)

[Jim Bowen]

I am looking forward to the new back story as the last edition hinted at some decent changes not got a problem with Tau being able to ally with the Imperium. I think the term ally is being apllied to literally by some posters just because IG can be allied with Dark Elder doesn't mean it would make them best buddies its more of a temporary shared goal, can also see why Blood Angels would not tolorate having Dark Eldar around so it makes sense to me.
Particularly looking forward to seeing what state the Emperor is going to be in as last time it was suggested he was dead but if its like the Marvel universe dead is never perminent.

[Arthanor]

While it is true that people tend to overreact regarding allies, C:SM and Tau are "battle brothers" which is indeed as "best buddies" as you can get in terms of the ally chart. A lower level of cooperation would have made more sense given the fluff we currently have. I am curious to see how it changed.

[Lupe]

I think a lot of you guys are reading too much into the "brothers in arms" term.

Brothers in arms, to me, suggests two highly professional armies with consistent short term goals and no blatantly contradicting ideologies working together without dogma, indoctrination or conflicting agendas getting in the way. That's just it. Two armies, on roughly equal footing playing it business as usual. That is, neither faction is coercing the other, and their alliance happens because there's no actual bad blood between them. Both are working together to come up with and carry out a plan that plays to both their strengths. Both sides see each other as worthy opponents(despite past differences, or because of the mutual respect earned as a result of those differences), and are more than willing to rely on each other against a mutual threat that does not share the same level of respect.

Brothers in arms, according to some of the more vocal complaints, suddenly means that the two factions are actually best buddies, and write each other Emperor's Ascension Day cards, and have sleep-overs when the Inquisition isn't watching. It means that there's some greater plot out there, and that Tau have always been the Emperor's pet project, that Guilliman once swore to protect. Well, guess what... there are literally dozens of explanations that might actually make sense, yet some people seem to jump the gun and take the single worst theory of them all for granted.

I can see reasons why the Black Templars, or the Wolves, or the Dark Angels might not have the same synergy with xenos as the Vanilla chapters. I can see why most Imperial factions would actually trust the Dark Eldar, but the Blood Angels wouldn't. I can see why Black Templars and Sisters don't have that instant click that you'd expect from two fanatical factions centered around upholding the Emperor's values. Given some time and the actual inclination to go into a rant about this, I could actually make the current alliance chart seem not only acceptable, but logical as well... I'm waiting for the big fluff breakthroughs before I do that, though...

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I agree with Arthanor. By having Space Marines and Tau as "brothers in arms", you're putting their relationship on the same footing as that between Space Marines and other Imperial factions (notably the Imperial Guard), and indeed on better terms than their relationship with other Imperial factions (Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle). If the Tau and Space Marines were "Grudging Allies" instead it would be much more acceptable. I hope it isn't a nod towards those horrible rumours concerning the Tau Empire and Ultramar.

[Mirbeau]

I think a lot of you guys are reading too much into the "brothers in arms" term.

Brothers in arms, to me, suggests two highly professional armies with consistent short term goals and no blatantly contradicting ideologies working together without dogma, indoctrination or conflicting agendas getting in the way. That's just it. Two armies, on roughly equal footing playing it business as usual. That is, neither faction is coercing the other, and their alliance happens because there's no actual bad blood between them. Both are working together to come up with and carry out a plan that plays to both their strengths. Both sides see each other as worthy opponents(despite past differences, or because of the mutual respect earned as a result of those differences), and are more than willing to rely on each other against a mutual threat that does not share the same level of respect.

Brothers in arms, according to some of the more vocal complaints, suddenly means that the two factions are actually best buddies, and write each other Emperor's Ascension Day cards, and have sleep-overs when the Inquisition isn't watching. It means that there's some greater plot out there, and that Tau have always been the Emperor's pet project, that Guilliman once swore to protect. Well, guess what... there are literally dozens of explanations that might actually make sense, yet some people seem to jump the gun and take the single worst theory of them all for granted.

I can see reasons why the Black Templars, or the Wolves, or the Dark Angels might not have the same synergy with xenos as the Vanilla chapters. I can see why most Imperial factions would actually trust the Dark Eldar, but the Blood Angels wouldn't. I can see why Black Templars and Sisters don't have that instant click that you'd expect from two fanatical factions centered around upholding the Emperor's values. Given some time and the actual inclination to go into a rant about this, I could actually make the current alliance chart seem not only acceptable, but logical as well... I'm waiting for the big fluff breakthroughs before I do that, though...

Oh, I think you've misunderstood me somewhat. Frankly, I'd go further, I think that there are concievable reasons for everybody to link and fight together. I wasn't complaining about the BA/DE thing, but saw it is a possible hint towards new fluff - currently, no notable conflict between the two exists in the fluff, yet the BA cannot ally with them at all, whilst other chapters can, not just the basic marines, I believe (Despite notable battles with the Salamanders). And I agree with your definition of 'brothers in arms'.

The thing I'm concerned about is that the rumour that the ultramarines serve as protectors to the tau seems correct, to some sort of extent -

there are four stages of ally, 'battle-brothers' is the highest level, allowing shared leadership etc. - and only the codex marines have this level of alliance with the tau, (the others being 'allies of convinience) implying (along with a nod from the bols poster that has the rulebook I linked to above) that this fluff expansion has taken place. I'll wait and see before passing judgement, it may not happen, it may be really neat, but I am VERY wary of this development.

[ConcentrateMore]

If the Tau-Vanilla Marines(read Ultramarines) does reflect fluff...let us just say that my Tau might be getting some Assault Marines, although I was planning human auxiliaries.

[Scribe of Khorne]

I can see reasons why the Black Templars, or the Wolves, or the Dark Angels might not have the same synergy with xenos as the Vanilla chapters. I can see why most Imperial factions would actually trust the Dark Eldar, but the Blood Angels wouldn't. I can see why Black Templars and Sisters don't have that instant click that you'd expect from two fanatical factions centered around upholding the Emperor's values. Given some time and the actual inclination to go into a rant about this, I could actually make the current alliance chart seem not only acceptable, but logical as well... I'm waiting for the big fluff breakthroughs before I do that, though...

I'd read it, regardless of the new fluff.

[RanaldLoec]

The astronomican is failing.

Massive Tyranids hive fleet are assailaing the Imperium from multiple directions.
The Orks numbers ever increase, the renegade legions persist in they 10,000 year old war.

Humanity's defenders are stretched beyond ability the Imperium stands on the brink of destruction......

In desperation mankind is willing to go to many lengths an alliance with the Tau from one of the most moderate and free thinking chapters in the 40k universes is believable.

[Memnos]

The astronomican is failing.

Massive Tyranids hive fleet are assailaing the Imperium from multiple directions.
The Orks numbers ever increase, the renegade legions persist in they 10,000 year old war.

Humanity's defenders are stretched beyond ability the Imperium stands on the brink of destruction......

In desperation mankind is willing to go to many lengths an alliance with the Tau from one of the most moderate and free thinking chapters in the 40k universes is believable.

Absolutely. Guilliman was the only Primarch to think, "Hey. We're winning this war. We won't be fighting forever - What are we going to do when it's over?"

He made his world in to a beacon of civilization and light. If anyone can restore the Empire to its glory, it's the sons of Guilliman. They're simply the last shining beacon of rationality and hope in a universe gone mad.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Absolutely. Guilliman was the only Primarch to think, "Hey. We're winning this war. We won't be fighting forever - What are we going to do when it's over?"

In contrast, wasn't Dorn's rationale that the Astartes would be required to wage perpetual war? He believed that the Great Crusade would last indefinitely - or was that Sigismund? Also, Magnus and Lorgar certainly weren't focussed solely on the Great Crusade and were planning for the future of humanity in the long-term. I imagine most of the Primarchs gave thought to what would become of themselves/humanity after the Great Crusade. In fact the idea that the Astartes and Primarchs were going to be cast aside and their positions of power usurped by mortal bureaucrats was one of the contributing reasons to Horus's fall, and was certainly used to convince other Primarchs to join him (notably Mortarion).

So you can hardly claim that Guilliman was the only Primarch to consider the future of humanity and to have planned accordingly.

[Memnos]

In contrast, wasn't Dorn's rationale that the Astartes would be required to wage perpetual war? He believed that the Great Crusade would last indefinitely - or was that Sigismund? Also, Magnus and Lorgar certainly weren't focussed solely on the Great Crusade and were planning for the future of humanity in the long-term. I imagine most of the Primarchs gave thought to what would become of themselves/humanity after the Great Crusade. In fact the idea that the Astartes and Primarchs were going to be cast aside and their positions of power usurped by mortal bureaucrats was one of the contributing reasons to Horus's fall, and was certainly used to convince other Primarchs to join him (notably Mortarion).

So you can hardly claim that Guilliman was the only Primarch to consider the future of humanity and to have planned accordingly.

Let me rephrase: He was the only primarch that prepared unselfishly for a future without war and the results of his actions spoke for themselves.

To him, a future without war was actually desireable and attainable. He didn't turn himself in to a gigantic, bloated, human sacrificing freak because of his own self-interests.

[TimLeeson]

Well if someone whos seen the rulebook would actually confirm the tay/ultramarine thing then we'd know. Personally I'm open to the idea depending on how well it is written.

[theJ]

Alternate possibility: "Gue'vesa" are not limited to ordinary humans. This would explain why the other chapters don't count as "brothers in arms" - because those codicii represent specific chapter whom we know have not gone traitor, while the vanilla 'dex represents ALL non-special chapters, including non-chaos traitors.

Not saying this is a fact, merely a possibility... as well as a great angle for conversions

[stormblade]

To him, a future without war was actually desireable and attainable. He didn't turn himself in to a gigantic, bloated, human sacrificing freak because of his own self-interests.

As it was to Magnus.

Ahriman could apperently made some awesome wine and had his own winyard on Tisca to which he planned to devote himself when he gets the oppertunity.

It's always wine it's never beer is it?

[MiyamatoMusashi]

Some concrete info would be good.

If the Tau thing is true... well. Let's just say "hey, y'know that army you've spent £1000+ on, and hundreds of hours painting, and you've got really excited about their background and back story and history and fluff and how they're the one shining beacon of hope (and to a degree, naivete) in an otherwise uncaring grim dark future? Well we've changed it, they now only exist because the Ultramarines let them. ******* YOU, HAHAHAHAHAHA!" would not be something I'd personally find very welcome.

[ForgottenLore]

Absolutely. Guilliman was the only Primarch to think, "Hey. We're winning this war. We won't be fighting forever - What are we going to do when it's over?"

And he was wrong

It's always wine it's never beer is it?

What would you like on your corn flakes?