New Background in 6e Rulebook

[Thommy H]

I was merely asking if there's been a clarification on this. It's a fairly glaring discrepancy. If you're seriously trying say that at least 23 allows for there to be 200 since 200 is more than 23, and this technically "at least" 23, and not merely being obnoxious, I feel like you need to slap yourself a few times.

The chart with the First Founding Chapters in the new book is exactly the same chart that's been used since 2nd Edition, with the exact same footnotes - so the Ultramarines Successors that it names are still the ones from the Apocrypha of Davio (you know, the one which says there are 23 but "fails to name them"). The important word you need to be focusing on here is "Apocrypha": that chart has always been intentionally inaccurate and subject to the ravages of time and Imperial bureaucratic incompetence. It's an in-universe source, not Word of God background.

Like with the two missing Legions, it's there to give fans a bit of room to play with.

[Hendarion]

Here's a bigger version of the Xenos picture, courtesy of 4chanAttachment 144518

Sorry that I didn't read all that stuff here, but what's that in the lower right? The tentacle-thing? Tentacles remind me of only one thing - Enslavers. Is this a new interpretation of 'em?

[ForgottenLore]

The chart with the First Founding Chapters in the new book is exactly the same chart that's been used since 2nd Edition, with the exact same footnotes - so the Ultramarines Successors that it names are still the ones from the Apocrypha of Davio (you know, the one which says there are 23 but "fails to name them"). The important word you need to be focusing on here is "Apocrypha": that chart has always been intentionally inaccurate and subject to the ravages of time and Imperial bureaucratic incompetence. It's an in-universe source, not Word of God background.

This!!!


I can't understand why anyone has ever considered that chart the be all, end all, word on the number and names of second founding chapters. It was a list of some examples and implies that there are lots more for each legion that aren't listed.

[malika]

IIRC the Grey Knights Codex mentioned something along the lines of 400 Second Founding Chapters to have been around in the early days of the Grey Knights.

[Fear Ghoul]

Ignoring the semantics of "about" vs "at least" (/facepalm), you didn't do so well with math did you?

If the Ultramarines were around 250,000 before Calth, suffered around 40-50% casualties there, it leaves them around 125-150,000 Space Marines. Then, the fluff maintains they bounced back and very quickly outstripped the other Legions to represent over half of all Space Marines which would put them back in the 200,000 range at least. Now, we get to the math, so break out the calculator if you need one. A modern Codex Astartes Chapter is ~1,000 Marines. 200,000/1000 = 200. Even if we say that they continued to take casualties at the rate equal to their brother Space Marines, and stayed in the 150,000 range, that's still 150 Successors. Now, Know No Fear told us an Ultramarines Chapter was, before the Codex Astartes 10,000 Marines. So it's possible that the original breakdown was 10,000 per Second Founding chapter, which would make sense (230,000/10,000=23). However, we've never been told anything of the sort. So, either the Scouring and Heresy caused tremendous casualties, killing more than 90% of the Space Marines in the galaxy (what would be required to reduce the Ultramarines from 250,000 to 23,000), or the numbers no longer match up. I successfully completed all of the math classes required below grade six, so I'm confident of my numbers.

I was merely asking if there's been a clarification on this. It's a fairly glaring discrepancy. If you're seriously trying say that at least 23 allows for there to be 200 since 200 is more than 23, and this technically "at least" 23, and not merely being obnoxious, I feel like you need to slap yourself a few times.

The most extensive account of the Second Founding comes from the in-universe Apocrypha of Davos, and this text only names 23 successor Chapters for the Ultramarines, whilst specifically stating that there may be more unrecorded. This represents the loss of Imperial knowledge through time and the secrecy of the Astartes, whilst also allowing players to develop their own Ultramarines successors in some forgotten sector of the Imperium.

[Harwammer]

I imagine many Second Founding chapters were deleted from history. The Imperium at large doesn't need to know about chapters being lost in the warp, destroyed in war or subverted by chaos. Better for them to have 'never existed' to begin with.

[Veteran Sergeant]

This!!!


I can't understand why anyone has ever considered that chart the be all, end all, word on the number and names of second founding chapters. It was a list of some examples and implies that there are lots more for each legion that aren't listed.

It isn't about anything other than questioning whether or not there has been a retcon of that bit of fluff.

I don't know what's so difficult for people to understand about that. It's a pretty simple question. I've been playing this gave since the early 90s, and the discrepancy of numbers created by the Horus Heresy novels is something eventually needs to be addressed and I figured this would be the time they'd do it. Good lord, so much chest puffing over a simple, legitimate question. The Grey Knights codex says just over 400 chapters were in existence at the time of thd Second Founding, so I wondered if the back story had been altered to reflect that. Seems like lazy copy/paste editing ruled the day. Fair enough.

[Thommy H]

I think the point we were making is that the bit of fluff in question isn't "there were 23 Ultramarines' Successors" it's "the Imperium's fragmentary records say there were 23, but the source is untrustworthy enough that even they call it apocryphal" which really has no bearing on anything in the HH novels, since they're an actual retelling of events and this is a source from 10,000 years later.

So there really isn't a need for a retcon as there's no inconsistency. The records are still wrong - we now know why they're called "The Apocrypha" in fact...

[theJ]

Seems Exterminatuses(Exterminatii? Exterminatices?) have been changed a bit. page154, quote: "Such a command can only come from the highest ranks of the Imperium - a Space Marine Chapter Master, Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy, Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard or an Inquisitor."

It then goes on to explain that the actual means with which exterminatus is performed varies depending on who calls it down. The marines, for instance, apparantly have access to some sort of unspecified device, that can decimate the planet if brought to the surface(some sort of non-droppable bomb, if I'm reading this right). The Navy is capable of unleaching such overkill shelling that the result is, in effect, Exteminatus. The Inquisition keeps using the "classics"(virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes).

[AndrewGPaul]

the Apocrypha of Davio

Apocrypha of Davos

Skaros

And yes, that was my point - there's a very important difference between "at least" and "about". If the chart says "at least 23 Successors" and it looks probable that there were 400, then there is no contradiction. The note in Codex: Grey Knights appears to be written in a more "out-of-universe" style. The exact number is irrelevant, anyway - all it serves to say is "there were a load of Ultramarines Successors created, and now no-one's entirely sure where they all are".

[Fear Ghoul]

It isn't about anything other than questioning whether or not there has been a retcon of that bit of fluff.

I don't know what's so difficult for people to understand about that. It's a pretty simple question. I've been playing this gave since the early 90s, and the discrepancy of numbers created by the Horus Heresy novels is something eventually needs to be addressed and I figured this would be the time they'd do it. Good lord, so much chest puffing over a simple, legitimate question. The Grey Knights codex says just over 400 chapters were in existence at the time of thd Second Founding, so I wondered if the back story had been altered to reflect that. Seems like lazy copy/paste editing ruled the day. Fair enough.

The only change that has occurred is the number of Marines constituting a Legion - previously 10,000 and now closer to 100,000. Neither number is inconsistent with the number of second founding Ultramarine successors named in-universe in an Apocrypha text.

[FlashGordon]

The chart with the First Founding Chapters in the new book is exactly the same chart that's been used since 2nd Edition, with the exact same footnotes - so the Ultramarines Successors that it names are still the ones from the Apocrypha of Davio (you know, the one which says there are 23 but "fails to name them"). The important word you need to be focusing on here is "Apocrypha": that chart has always been intentionally inaccurate and subject to the ravages of time and Imperial bureaucratic incompetence. It's an in-universe source, not Word of God background.

Like with the two missing Legions, it's there to give fans a bit of room to play with.

Except its not exactly the same. Look again, Soul Drinkers are now finaly accepted as an Imperial Fists successor!

[baphomael]

On the subject of the Apocrypha of Skaros, some people shouldn't read too deeply into it. As noted, there's a reason its called the Apocrypha of Shares. It's, well, apocryphal.

For those unfamiliar with the word, it can variously mean hidden, esoteric, spurious, unreliable texts. In the Christian tradition, apocryphal texts are those biblical texts that are not deemed to be Canonical. Given the imperial faith seems to be modelled on Judeo-Christian influence, particularly a caricature of Roman, medieval and early modern Christianity, the fact that in-universe it is dubbed an apocryphal text says a lot.

What's more telling, is that its the only real, or at least the primary, source for a 'historical' text on it from an Imperial historical perspective. While it is recognised as apocryphal, the imperious probably doesn't have a better source.
But yea, its probably best to take all in universr fluff as apocryphal... its a huge part of the theme, the reason several GW writers have said, on the subject of the background, that essentially everything, and nothing, published is true. It's all spurious rumour, questionable content, biased sources, superstitious colouring, mythic retelling. In short, a little bit like pre-modern history.... only ramped up to 11.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I think the point we were making is that the bit of fluff in question isn't "there were 23 Ultramarines' Successors" it's "the Imperium's fragmentary records say there were 23, but the source is untrustworthy enough that even they call it apocryphal" which really has no bearing on anything in the HH novels, since they're an actual retelling of events and this is a source from 10,000 years later.

So there really isn't a need for a retcon as there's no inconsistency. The records are still wrong - we now know why they're called "The Apocrypha" in fact...

To paraphrase the villain from Die Hard, if you steal a thousand dollars, you can just disappear. If you steal ten million dollars, they will find you.

Losing track of a handful of Chapters is one thing. Losing track of three hundred and fifty (or nearly 88% of them) is somewhat different, lol. I mean, Space Marine chapters keep all these detailed histories, revere all of these ancient heroes, and recount ancient battles. You're telling me they're going to have lost track of all of these successors? Especially the ones which are directly spawned from their original Legion?

If you're willing to accept the gap with a wave of your hand, be my guest. It seems like something that needs to be retconned for clarity due to the change in fluff. After all, if the entire history of the Necrons can be changed, this seems like a very minor detail to change and hardly sacrosanct.

[Londinium]

To paraphrase the villain from Die Hard, if you steal a thousand dollars, you can just disappear. If you steal ten million dollars, they will find you.

Losing track of a handful of Chapters is one thing. Losing track of three hundred and fifty (or nearly 88% of them) is somewhat different, lol. I mean, Space Marine chapters keep all these detailed histories, revere all of these ancient heroes, and recount ancient battles. You're telling me they're going to have lost track of all of these successors? Especially the ones which are directly spawned from their original Legion?

If you're willing to accept the gap with a wave of your hand, be my guest. It seems like something that needs to be retconned for clarity due to the change in fluff. After all, if the entire history of the Necrons can be changed, this seems like a very minor detail to change and hardly sacrosanct.

In 10,000 years it's not particularly difficult to lose such information. We totally lost any ability to read ancient hieroglyphs for 1400 years and still wouldn't be able to read them now if it wasn't for one very lucky find in the Rosetta Stone. We're still missing big chunks of information on the Roman Empire, which was a continental spanning empire which fell in the West only 1600 years ago. Very little is known about massive chunks of England's history from about 400-600. Some of the earliest computer data is unreadable now because we can't read the file formats anymore and that was only like 50/60 years ago (totally stupid but also shows how humans often lack foresight). The point I'm trying to make here it's that it's perfectly possible to lose massive amounts of information over long periods and what we're looking at is nearly ten times the time span of the things I quoted. You should also take account of the decentralisation of the Imperium, Terra might well have lost information on dozens of Ultramarines Chapters but you'd imagine that on Macragge there would be better kept records because it's more important to them. Dozens of those Chapters might well have been destroyed and modern Terra just shrugs it's shoulders because it never knew they existed because their loss has long been forgotten, whereas the Ultramarines will probably remember their loss although even they will probably not have full records. At the same time if Terra has no idea of these long lost or dead Chapters it's not likely to go asking the Ultramarines for any information on them as Terra being Terra will automatically assume it has the best information at hand. It's not really hand waving, it's the nature of the beast, both in terms of poor record keeping over thousands of years and also the character of the Imperium. Sure the real reason is because of the evolving fluff and how the old stuff doesn't link perfectly with it but the in universe explanation works perfectly well also.

[Tygre]

I seem to remember that when the Legions split up many of the Chapters were over-strength. Until natural attrition reduced them to the required level. What else can you do when the survivors are not exactly devisable by 1000. You could have understrength chapters, but also the initial command corp could only be stretched so far.

[DYoung]

To paraphrase the villain from Die Hard, if you steal a thousand dollars, you can just disappear. If you steal ten million dollars, they will find you.

Losing track of a handful of Chapters is one thing. Losing track of three hundred and fifty (or nearly 88% of them) is somewhat different, lol. I mean, Space Marine chapters keep all these detailed histories, revere all of these ancient heroes, and recount ancient battles. You're telling me they're going to have lost track of all of these successors? Especially the ones which are directly spawned from their original Legion?

If you're willing to accept the gap with a wave of your hand, be my guest. It seems like something that needs to be retconned for clarity due to the change in fluff. After all, if the entire history of the Necrons can be changed, this seems like a very minor detail to change and hardly sacrosanct.

I think the fact that the Imperium has existed in more or less the same form for 10,000 years is itself fairly amazing. Not to mention that 18 out of the 20 original space marine legions are not only remembered but are still flying around and kicking ****.

[AndrewGPaul]

It doesn't say they've lost track of them. After all, there are plenty of examples of Chapters with unclear antecedents - the Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Astral Claws and others. All that is lost is a precise record of their founding.

It appears there are two apocrypha, according to Lexicanum; the Apocrypha of Skaros, which is the earliest known copy of the Codex Astartes and states there were at least 23 Successors of the Ultramarines, and the Apocrypha of Davio, a list of the Second Founding Space Marine chapters made in M33. I don't have a copy of the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines to hand, so I can't check what it says about the latter. In addition, we don't know if either volume is complete - the Skaros document could list twenty-three Chapters and then the next pages are missing.

[Harwammer]

There is a chance they didn't want to keep track of successor chapters. Splitting the legions was meant to break down power bases. Keeping record of such strong ties between chapters wouldn't be helpful in this regard.

That said, oral tradition is strong and even in 10k years it seems hard to believe a (surviving) second founding chapter would forget it's origin. Based on this thought, could it be that many of the original 2nd founding chapters are now extinct?

[jareddm3]

That said, oral tradition is strong and even in 10k years it seems hard to believe a (surviving) second founding chapter would forget it's origin. Based on this thought, could it be that many of the original 2nd founding chapters are now extinct?

More than likely this is the case. In the one or two millenniums following the Scouring, chaos was still a very new and very unknown enemy in the galaxy. I imagine a significant minority of chapters ended up falling to chaos through temptation, corruption, or hubris, especially after their Horus Heresy veterans were killed off in battle. These chapters would've been purged and swept under the rug, the rest of the galaxy never hearing of them again. Either that or they escape into the warp and become something far different.