Tactica: Deathwing 6th Edition

[Elios Harg]

Running a modified version of my old Zeke/Vindi list (that was doing great at the end of 5th) this weekend @ 2000 pts (single FOC). Will post up how well it fares. Here's the list:

HQ
Belial TH/SS
Librarian in TDA w/ Combi-Plasma (swapped out for Zeke due to points)

Troops
DWCS w/ Apothecary, Standard, 5 TH/SS, CML
2x DWS 5 TH/SS, CML
1x DWS 1 SB/PS, 3 SB/PF, 1 AC/PF

Fast
3-man RWAS PW, 2 MGs and Attack Bike w/ MM

Heavy
2 Vindicators w/ dozer blades

Fortification
Fortress of Redemption w/ Krakstorm

Edit: Left out the Attack bike

[Megatron]

The only thing that i am not a fan of is the sergeant with a power sword and storm bolter. I tend to run my sergeants with DLC so he can re-roll to wounds, also he gets an added attack he pretty much shreds meq's in challenges. I would also drop the power weapon from the ravenwing squads.

[Elios Harg]

The only thing that i am not a fan of is the sergeant with a power sword and storm bolter. I tend to run my sergeants with DLC so he can re-roll to wounds, also he gets an added attack he pretty much shreds meq's in challenges. I would also drop the power weapon from the ravenwing squads.

Both valid points. The shooty squad is intended purely for that, which is why I opted for the additional storm bolter over something else. The power weapon in the ravenwing squadron is simply because I didn't quite have enough points for Ezekiel, I suppose I could drop the power weapon and a dozer blade from a vindicator to put Zeke back in. On the other hand, the sarge does have 4 S4 AP3 attacks on the charge meaning I can reliably challenge tactical squad equivalents and take their sergeant out of the fight (either by killing him or him declining). Will have to think about it.

[FarseerUshanti]

I have a 6th ed tournament coming up this weekend. Plan is to run the following list

Belial

Librarian w/ Divination

5x DW Squads 5 TH&SS, CML

1450

I'm considering dropping the librarian for an Imperial bastion. Also going to add either the banner or the apothecary, maybe both.

[Megatron]

@Elios I was just speaking from my own experience with the sergeant, I know you want that squad to be a support squad, but in my 2k army it is a foregone conclusion that all my terminators will see cc at some point, and the DLC sergeant has saved my shiny a** on many occasions. To be honest though, give the pw x sb sergeant a try and tell me how he worked for you, because I wanted to include him for some extra shots. The ravenwing squadron I would just take away the pw and add melta bombs to you sergeant.

@ushanti the generic 5 thss squad can't go wrong with that, but considering you don't have any support units I would look into making 2 of those squads into pfxsb squads, or else you will have a hard time softening up horde armies, remember you only have 10 shots per turn with that list.

I was also looking for a critique for a new army list I was trying out, let me know what you guys thinks.

Belial w/DLC/
Command squard w/cml/4 thss/apothecary/sergeant w/DLC/
4x5 terminator squads w/cml/4 thss/sergeant w/DLC/
2x5 terminator squads w/PwxSb/4 PfxSb/
5 terminators w/cml/4 PfxSb/sergeant w/DLC/

I know this list look a little funky, but thats why I posted it so you guys could help me refine it lol.

[ErictheGreen]

So here's what I'm seeing.
- less mech. Mainly long range av13, fliers and shooty dreads.
- by consequence, more infantry, which means more small arms fire.

Result? Well, massed small arms fire is killing my terminators. Tesla necrons especially. And with overwatch, combat has to be a very well thought out situation. Go charging into big mobs and you'll feel the hurt. With the multiple objective missions (and in particular the random vp one), 4 terminator squads is not enough at 1750. They die too quick.

So I've been thinking about supporting them in a meaningful way. Bikes have great potential - melta is still tank death. But with less tanks, do they fit into a balanced list? Maybe. I ripped an eldar tank army apart a couple of weeks ago with them but with the variety of armies out there now, they're seeming to be more hit and miss.
Land speeders, typhoons to be precise still give us a good volume of fire but they're oh so delicate and there's more long range guns out there now. No net change so they're still solid.

Now...predators...autolas was the choice du jour in 5th. I have to ask if it's needed now. Turn 2 the mech is gone and they're inefficient infantry killers. Do we switch to auto bolter preds? Theyve been doing ok for me, nothing more. Even with the advanced rate of fire.

Vindicators really have some game now. But the army will be light on mech and they're a helluva target. But with terminators giving them cover, an 18 inch first turn move, they may well be worth trying. Il be testing them next week.

Belials banner and FNP - I'm starting to see them as more of a luxury item than a must have. I fail saves from torrent of fire, so the 5+ is definitely worse for me. Tha said, if I pass 1 fnp save, the apothecary has made his points back.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Stelek is going with termis and bikes again. There's an appeal to that for me but I wonder if it cant be done better

[TheDoctor]

So here's what I'm seeing.
- less mech. Mainly long range av13, fliers and shooty dreads.
- by consequence, more infantry, which means more small arms fire.

Result? Well, massed small arms fire is killing my terminators. Tesla necrons especially. And with overwatch, combat has to be a very well thought out situation. Go charging into big mobs and you'll feel the hurt. With the multiple objective missions (and in particular the random vp one), 4 terminator squads is not enough at 1750. They die too quick.

So I've been thinking about supporting them in a meaningful way. Bikes have great potential - melta is still tank death. But with less tanks, do they fit into a balanced list? Maybe. I ripped an eldar tank army apart a couple of weeks ago with them but with the variety of armies out there now, they're seeming to be more hit and miss.
Land speeders, typhoons to be precise still give us a good volume of fire but they're oh so delicate and there's more long range guns out there now. No net change so they're still solid.

Now...predators...autolas was the choice du jour in 5th. I have to ask if it's needed now. Turn 2 the mech is gone and they're inefficient infantry killers. Do we switch to auto bolter preds? Theyve been doing ok for me, nothing more. Even with the advanced rate of fire.

Vindicators really have some game now. But the army will be light on mech and they're a helluva target. But with terminators giving them cover, an 18 inch first turn move, they may well be worth trying. Il be testing them next week.

Belials banner and FNP - I'm starting to see them as more of a luxury item than a must have. I fail saves from torrent of fire, so the 5+ is definitely worse for me. Tha said, if I pass 1 fnp save, the apothecary has made his points back.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Stelek is going with termis and bikes again. There's an appeal to that for me but I wonder if it cant be done better

I've been proxying some vindicators in a couple of games, and the so called "Siegewing" is working out really well.
-Yes they will attract fire
-Yes they are vulnerable to the First Blood secondary. But still, you have to glance AV13 with 5+/4+ cover 3 times, which isn't all that reliable with the shift to infantry and the new night fight.

That said, they provide deathwing's answers to hordes, and AV 14 at range, without having to rely on suicide bikes. Also, now that I am heading down the path of all TH/SS, I need the shooting (plasma has not taken very long to resurge)


And as for not enough scoring units, I hate to use the A-word, but... Allies...
pick up some cheap platoons, and suddenly you have 60 pt units (you took an autocannon) whose job is to go to ground and score. it also gives us access to anti-air, or if you are really going for the siegewing theme, a Leman Russ with the Vindicator gun.

And I'm already planning on doing up the IG as Dark Angel serfs, and the Company Commander is gonna have a robe . Yes, it may be a bit liberal with fluff, but I can always paint them up in a successor chapter serf colors, and have 1-2 of my "Deathwing" squads done up in the same color.

[ErictheGreen]

Are you using 3 vindis or 2? I'm looking at 2 with dozers and the extra storm bolter from weapon destroyed randomness.
Allies is tempting, but I don't want to go down that route just yet.
I think the need is there for 5 deathwing squads. It's how to back them up that vexes me. I think we will see more hordes and the condo is nice for that as well as adding utility (unlike the whirlwind)

[Elios Harg]

I'm running 2 vindis ATM as that is what I have. I'm heavily considering a third but am leery about making many purchases with our codex coming relatively soon. Vindicators definitely seem a lot better in 6th with the increased difficulty to be shut down, for the most part you either destroy them or they keep shooting.

I'm planning on using the Fortress to keep them safe early on and the using them and my shooty squad as board control units. With most missions having 3+ objectives it shouldn't be difficult to plant one or two behind the Fortress and pop a scoring unit out the door late in the game. Particularly during big guns when the vindis are scoring.

It seems due to comp scoring I'll have to modify my list slightly so I'm dropping the krakstorm on the FoR and adding Zeke back in place of the Libby. Will likely add SBs to the Vindicators as well.

[TheDoctor]

Are you using 3 vindis or 2? I'm looking at 2 with dozers and the extra storm bolter from weapon destroyed randomness.
Allies is tempting, but I don't want to go down that route just yet.
I think the need is there for 5 deathwing squads. It's how to back them up that vexes me. I think we will see more hordes and the condo is nice for that as well as adding utility (unlike the whirlwind)

Generally I run 3 with stormbolters, unless we are playing at a lower points level.

[Metheon]

Did anyone notice how the Mortis dread got Skyfire? That's pretty cool. Too bad we can only have one. 1500 pts = belial, 4 squads, 2 vindies, 1 mortis dread with lascannons.

[ErictheGreen]

Autocannons will deal with most fliers more efficiently. Cheaper too.

[Captain Collius]

Did anyone notice how the Mortis dread got Skyfire? That's pretty cool. Too bad we can only have one. 1500 pts = belial, 4 squads, 2 vindies, 1 mortis dread with lascannons.

Umm no where did you see this? Mortis Contemptors do is that what you saw?

[Enigma6]

I hadnt seen anything on the regular mortis either, but the skyfire on the contemptor had me hoping for the same rules on our Mortis come the next dex.

If the regular mortis does have this then I'll be able to practice this trick until we see what fancy tools we actually get

[Megatron]

Hey guys could you critique this list, just something new I was thinking about toying with.
Belial w/DLC/
Command squard w/cml/4 thss/apothecary/sergeant w/DLC/
4x5 terminator squads w/cml/4 thss/sergeant w/DLC/
2x5 terminator squads w/PwxSb/4 PfxSb/
5 terminators w/cml/4 PfxSb/sergeant w/DLC/

[Metheon]

Umm no where did you see this? Mortis Contemptors do is that what you saw?

It's in the ForgeWorld Vehicle Update. Both the contemptor and the normal mortis have it.

I still think lascannons is better. Lot's of flyers with A12, that means you still need to hit three 5s with those autocannons to drop it. With lascannons you up your chances of destroying on the penetration table.

[Enigma6]

Excellent spot there. I'd completely missed that

Lascannons are pretty pricey but you are right that the flyers that worry me the most tend to be av12. Las does feel a little more reliable for this job. Shame there's no double typhoon missile launcher option. Maybe in the new dex lascannons will be priced lower, like the Icarus vs quad gun prices and the lascannon on the stormtalon

Autocannons would be great for necron scythes though.

[Finn]

I dunno.

Vs. AV 12 -
Autocannons = 8/27 chance for a result with 4 shots
Lascannons = 16/27 chance for a result with 2 shots

With the lascannon, you have an 8/81 chance to kill with a single shot (or ~18.8% chance to kill, between two shots). With the autocannon, it's 1/4 that - or 8/324 (~9.5% chance to kill outright, between 4 shots). So to kill a Vendetta with one salvo, you have the lascannons at ~18.8%, and the autocannons math is too difficult for me to calculate without a textbook handy...

However, the autocannon has twice the shots...and can potentially kill a Vendetta in one salvo without relying on penetrating and killing. I'd rather have the autocannons - they still do the job, and they're better at multi-role.

[ErictheGreen]

Megaton, list looks fine. Just slow (not a huge problem) and with only 14 missiles, may struggle against mech heavy.

[Metheon]

I dunno.

Vs. AV 12 -
Autocannons = 8/27 chance for a result with 4 shots
Lascannons = 16/27 chance for a result with 2 shots

With the lascannon, you have an 8/81 chance to kill with a single shot (or ~18.8% chance to kill, between two shots). With the autocannon, it's 1/4 that - or 8/324 (~9.5% chance to kill outright, between 4 shots). So to kill a Vendetta with one salvo, you have the lascannons at ~18.8%, and the autocannons math is too difficult for me to calculate without a textbook handy...

However, the autocannon has twice the shots...and can potentially kill a Vendetta in one salvo without relying on penetrating and killing. I'd rather have the autocannons - they still do the job, and they're better at multi-role.

Another, less math heavy, way at looking at is is this.

Let's pretend that a twin linked weapon always hit. That means 4 autocannons hit and 2 lascannons hit.

For the autocannons to glance the A12 to death you need three 5s out of four dice. You should get around one and a third. For it to destroy it with a penetrating hit you need a 6 to penetrate and then another 6 destroy (AP4). With the lascannons you need a 4+ to penetrate so with two shots you get one penetrating hit which then have a 5+ chance to destroy (AP2).

So autocannons need to get lucky and get three out of four dice be 5+ OR they need a six and another six to destroy outright.

Lascannons are more like 1/3 chance of destroying.