Tactica: Deathwing 6th Edition

[Madgear Thundaklutch]

Yep, dreads are now absolute bunkum. At least we understand why Ward made them so OP in the GK codex, they were always in line for a nerf...

LRs are much better than they were before. Yes, blowing up hasn't changed, but I can live with that, I'm still only worried by melta in that regard. BUT they have a massive survivability boost in terms of glancing.

- They almost always get a 5++ cover save as only 25% needs to be covered (terminators now grant saves to LRs)
- Glances don't roll on the table - you can't stop the 250 points of 25 shots from shooting by glancing
- We're still an assault tank, pretty much the only one left in the game - no one else can assault out of a vehicle (except open topped ones I think)
- Glances don't roll on the table - you can't stop our 250 points of assault tank goodness in its tracks by glancing

All vehicles seem to be bunkum now. I even stretch that to LRs. TBH, I briefly read through the book and hopefully will be playing my first games of 6th tomorrow, however from the way I read it, each glancing takes off a hull point. 4 glances and your raider is dead. This has its ups and downs. 4 simple glances can drop a raider, but it will still have full functionality until it does, where as last edition a glance could cripple it, or if your opponent rolled badly, you could shrug off 1's and 2's all day long. The change to the ap1/2 modifiers also makes vehicles that much more fragile, however you could argue that if melta was in range anyways your tank is as good as dead even in the last edition.


I am happy they changed how vehicle squadrons handle immobilized results.


Just my humble opinion.

[Elios Harg]

Techmarines are actually tempting now. Too bad ours are not ICs. I suppose we could ally with a space marine or grey knight techmarine, but that's a hefty investment. Landspeeder squadrons are actually pretty darn awesome, if fragile. You could squadron a typhoon with a couple of normal meltaspeeders and play leapfrog with them to always have the lead speeder going flat out while the other two get to fire all their weapons.

[Finn]

Shrike could grant Infiltrate to a unit of Ravenwing bikers, who could then Scout move to within 12" of the enemy lines and DWA within 6" of all of them on Turn 1. If only we could have Belial in that set-up :P

Why not? There are 2 HQ slots... You just couldn't use a Libby.

Techmarines are actually tempting now. Too bad ours are not ICs. I suppose we could ally with a space marine or grey knight techmarine, but that's a hefty investment. Landspeeder squadrons are actually pretty darn awesome, if fragile. You could squadron a typhoon with a couple of normal meltaspeeders and play leapfrog with them to always have the lead speeder going flat out while the other two get to fire all their weapons.

I may actually go the other way and ally Deathwing with a parent detachment of Vanilla... It seems cheesy, but until our codex gets updated without a 10-15% points tax on all of our units... Doing so would take advantage of cheaper Tactical Squads, cheaper TH/SS terminators, but sadly only one cheaper Typhoon. So the list would be something like SM Libby, Belial, 3 DW squads (2 troops, 1 elite), 1 Typhoon, and then fill points with a 2 Tacticals and 2 Predators or Devastators. It would almost be like a real mixed-force Dark Angels army . Should be something like 1750 points...could take a DA LRC to haul around Belial and a DW squad, as the DA HS slot would still be open. Could also take a vanilla Techmarine and leave him inside, yeah?

[Enigma6]

Maybe the answer to Sargent equipment & challenges depends on your IC.

If you gave beliel LC or Libby a force sword, then you'll want a THSS sarge with them to take on MCs or other 2+, as your IC can't.

If u gave beliel THSS or your Libby a force axe, then u want a LC sarge to snipe out fists before they strike.

How you arm the squads without an IC will probably go down to personal preference, your local meta, and what the rest of the squad has. After all if the rest of the squad is THSS and your sarge is LC, he can always just decline a challenge and let his squad do the smacking.

I'm thinking about a more shooty force where there might only be 1 SS in the whole squad. I'd rather have that on the sarge so he can LoS some of the AP3+ hits away and take on nasty challengers.

[Sholto]

Why not? There are 2 HQ slots... You just couldn't use a Libby.

I haven't seen the rulebook, but I understood the Allied Detachment could not include a named HQ. Can it?

[Elios Harg]

I could see doing that. In fact, Deathwing makes for great allies anyone that can take them. Nothing prohibits Unique characters from being in an allied detachment. So yes, theoretically, you can ally with Draigo and a Paladin squad

[Droma]

I haven't seen the rulebook, but I understood the Allied Detachment could not include a named HQ. Can it?

You can take named HQ's without issue.

On another note I'm tempted to run GK as allies and grab a generic inquisitor HQ(25pt tax lol) and two squads of grey knight terminators with psycannons. They do shooty much better than deathwing does and for much cheaper. If you include the inquisitor in the price tag a 5 man GKT squad with psycannon comes out 5 points more expensive than a deathwing squad with assault cannon. Bump that up to a 10 man squad and consider midfield controlled.

Belial 130,
DW 215
DW 215
LRC 250
LRC 250

Inquisitor 25, 3 servo skulls 9
10 man GKT, 2 psycannons 450
10 man GKT, 2 psycannons 450

1994 points total. I don't think a lot of armies would enjoy facing that list.

[Finn]

Going the GK route, I'd probably end up dropping all the vehicles and sticking to footslogging/DWA - gear up the Inquisitor a little bit, too, and maybe add a second GK Terminator unit. Add Ezekiel if I find the Inquisitor isn't enough for powers. Because basically, I'm still not sold on the pricy Stormraven. Sure, it's a heavily armoured flyer now, but I just don't see how a clunky flyer (face it, the move rules are extremely clunky) is worth it for a couple of shots... And if you hover to disembark, it's no longer a flyer... I guess I was pretty convinced of the power of footslogging DW before, and still pretty much am. Especially when the opportunity cost of that Stormraven is another GK terminator unit, or something.

[Droma]

@Finn I redid the list. Maybe drop the LRC's for more deathwing squads? I'll have to play around with LRC's in some upcoming games and see how good/bad they are.

[Finn]

Despite my last post, I think there's space for LRC's in DW in 6th. To clarify, I don't know if there's space for LRC's (AND a Stormraven) when one includes allies, and my gut says there isn't (for the Stormraven at least, and depending on which allies you take for the LRC's).

I think that updated list has better balance - you have 2 very shooty squads of 10 GK Termies each to use as an anchor, with 2 (presumably assaulty) DW units in LRC's that are able to advance, as opposed to 3 units mounted and only one to anchor. Where does the IQ go - inside the non-Belial LRC? It seems small with only "4" units, but it is still 30 Terminators plus characters and 2 LRCs. Another drawback is that you are all 24" or less, which would make me nervous about including the LRCs vs. DW units w/CML.

[starlight]

Yeah, I'd give that a whirl.

[Metheon]

To be honest I am getting a bit bored with all this discussions about allies and such. I know its new and great but then again, we play Dark Angels for a reason. We dont want no allies lurking in the corners, sneak-peeking at our secrets.

My point is. Before we get all caught up in weird mixed lists with various allies of sorts, greenwing and even ravenwing I think we should take a moment to get back to basics.

Pure Deathwing.

We got our terminator suit wearing characters, our land raiders, our venerable dreadnoughts and of course our terminator units. Nothing else. What works. Think outside the box. Dont jump to conclusions.

As an example. Are dreadnoughts really junk now simply due to some secondary objective of a mission? Really? So what if you lose some victory points there from time to time if it wins you the game at other times.

Please reconsider pure Deathwing. Lets review our very few and limited options. Mechanized, footslogging, hybrid, dreadnoughts, terminator equipment and what else.

[KaldCB]

Played my first game today!

We played 1750 points, and I used 6 terminator squads with cyclone, Belial and a librarian.
Used 1 all th/ss squad with banner and apothecary with both characters., and had 3-4 sb's in the other squads.
I really crushed him the "rhino parking lot" army don't work that great anymore.

Couple of things i noted.

*The space wolf runic weapon that dispels psychic powers on 4+ still works and have not been FAQ'ed like psychic hoods. so I did not manage to get of a single power in the game. (failed the roll 2 time thou)
*Vehicles dies much more quick with the hull point system. firing 2-3 cyclones will most likely kill a rhino instead of risking rollings just one and two's
*Transports are not so good as it can only move 6 if you want to disembark. you can move 6 inches afterwords, but then you are very much in the open and not protected behind you vehicle like before.

*1-2 storm shields will not save you from plasma's and such shooting. the way the allocating system works where the first models gets the hit, and the shooting player controls which AP shot comes first, he can always allocate the shots to take away the advantage of some storm shields. If the storm shield stand in the front, allocate the bolter shots first. storm shields in the middle, allocate the plasma first.
*The fact that you can measure anything and storm bolters are golden! very easy to keep 18"+ away.
*The reduced cover save for most stuff will matter, (not so much against us) but other stuff dies much more quickly.
*The fact that transports can no longer contest means that you can pretty much ignore empty rhinos as they are not important anymore.

I think Deathwing will be good in this edition. but it will take a year for the meta to adjust i think, especially with the allies system.

[Enigma6]

If I'm going to take GK allies then I'd be mostly doing it for their Libby and I'd consider the shooty squad as the tax.

Our Libby has better stats but theirs has 4++ or I6 and, most importantly, mastery level 3. It bumms that we have no epistolaries and our cheif librarian is mastery level 1. Where is the love?

I do agree that this thread should be more about deathwing squad load out and the mech question. Allies are exciting but let's figure out what the allies are allying with first.

I think that 6th assaulty squads will probably look like;
LC sarge
THSS x3
THSS + CML

However, I'm very interested in a shooty list. I think it works well with a lot of the divination powers and is generally more flexible. What will shooty squads look like? I'm thinking;
LC OR THSS sarge (probably LC is optimum really, though I prefer THSS)
SB+PF x3
SB+CF+CML

The CML guy hides at the back and only steps up if they will be charging a vehicle.

I still feel vulnerable without a SS for combat. I know that they are less useful vs shooting but save lives vs AP2 in combat. Most of the time this is on challengable models but not always. Maybe only gaming will tell and responding to the meta shift

[snottlebocket]

All vehicles seem to be bunkum now. I even stretch that to LRs. TBH, I briefly read through the book and hopefully will be playing my first games of 6th tomorrow, however from the way I read it, each glancing takes off a hull point. 4 glances and your raider is dead. This has its ups and downs. 4 simple glances can drop a raider, but it will still have full functionality until it does, where as last edition a glance could cripple it, or if your opponent rolled badly, you could shrug off 1's and 2's all day long. The change to the ap1/2 modifiers also makes vehicles that much more fragile, however you could argue that if melta was in range anyways your tank is as good as dead even in the last edition.


I am happy they changed how vehicle squadrons handle immobilized results.


Just my humble opinion.

Heavy tanks look better than ever to me. Tank damage is much more manageable now. Glancing ap14 isn't that easy. When it does happen it no longer shuts down the tank. I can actually plan for my tanks now.

Ie. I want my russ squadron in that position, they'll probably take about 5 glances in the proces. I find that acceptable. I can manoeuvre the tanks so none are destroyed. Glances no longer slow or shut them down, so taking glances won't risk ruining my manoeuvre. So the gamble is much reduced.

In the past a glancing shot could shut a russ down for a turn. No longer, I simply plan for how many hull points I'm willing to spend to get priority shots with main guns. Huge improvement.

And to top it off, tank cover is also easier to get.

[Finn]

If I'm going to take GK allies then I'd be mostly doing it for their Libby and I'd consider the shooty squad as the tax.

Our Libby has better stats but theirs has 4++ or I6 and, most importantly, mastery level 3. It bumms that we have no epistolaries and our cheif librarian is mastery level 1. Where is the love?

I do agree that this thread should be more about deathwing squad load out and the mech question. Allies are exciting but let's figure out what the allies are allying with first.

I think that 6th assaulty squads will probably look like;
LC sarge
THSS x3
THSS + CML

However, I'm very interested in a shooty list. I think it works well with a lot of the divination powers and is generally more flexible. What will shooty squads look like? I'm thinking;
LC OR THSS sarge (probably LC is optimum really, though I prefer THSS)
SB+PF x3
SB+CF+CML

The CML guy hides at the back and only steps up if they will be charging a vehicle.

I still feel vulnerable without a SS for combat. I know that they are less useful vs shooting but save lives vs AP2 in combat. Most of the time this is on challengable models but not always. Maybe only gaming will tell and responding to the meta shift

I'm actually coming to the conclusion that, for a while at least (until we have more than a couple of 6E codices released), there is going to be more than one way to skin a cat in this edition. I don't think you need to worry about AP2 in combat, except against things like MCs - which don't want to be in combat with Terminators anyway.

I'm glad I never really finished making my TH/SS models, and still have all of my SB/PF models. I plan to diverge a little from DW with them and take some vanilla allies, but I'll be keeping an eye out here for generic DW squad tactica...

What's with none of these posted lists including the Apothecary upgrade anymore? Does FnP being reduced to 5+ really warrant dropping him from the squad, especially considering that you have to get hit with a S8+ thing to knock out the FnP? I know, I know - lascannons and melta, but you'll get the FnP against almost everything in CC, and against plasma. Why buy the banner before buying the Apothecary?

[Droma]

Survivability is up so killyness becomes more important as an extension of that. You wanted feel no pain before because termies were always pretty fragile and you wanted them up as long as possible. That is not so much the case anymore so why waste the 30pts when you can just make them kill things better.


As to everyone else, yeah this is a deathwing thread. But allies are part of the rules so saving the discussion for later seems rather pointless. With 6th edition being so new discussing anything is really rather pointless as the meta hasn't had time to shift and adjust. The real discussion will most likely be happening next month or later so may as well toss out all the crazy list idea's now and see what sticks.

[FarseerUshanti]

Had my first game in 6th last night at 2,000 points. Played a Tyranid player in a game where we tried to use as many of the new rules as possible. We played the Emporer's Will (capture and control) with Vanguard Strike deployment (triangle deployment). He won 5-3 due to secondary objectives.

My List
Belial
Ezekiel (Took Foreboding and Misfortune and kept Force Barrier)
6 Terminator squads with THSS, and one CML per squad
2 Land Speeder Typhoons with Multi Meltas, one with an Assault Cannon, one with Heavy Flamer
Whirlwind

Tyranid List
Prime
3 or 4 warriors
18 Gaunts
15 Gargoyles
Tervigon
Tyrannofex
Winged Hive Tyrant (Took Iron Arm)
3 Zoanthropes (Took Invisibility, Shriek and kept S10 power)
Trygon
Broodlord (Took Iron Arm) and 10 Genestealers

At the end of the battle I had 8 Terminators, and he had 2 zoanthropes, the prime and warriors which were on his objective, and about 12 gaunts or so.

General impression of the new rules is pretty favorable, psychic powers are definitely going to be big in 6th.

Winged monstrous creatures are going to be deadly if they can't be taken down. Until the Winged Hive Tyrant landed and went into combat with Belial's squad, he blew up 2 land speeders and a whirlwind in 1 turn. Had he not charged into combat the tyrant would have wrecked havoc on my lines.

I will say if flyers end up being prevalent an Aegis Defense Line may become a must have. After trying to fire at the Winged Hive Tyrant with no luck over several turns, it is much better to bite the bullet and pay the 100 points to be able to shoot at flyers with a normal ballistic skill, and at twin-linked no less.

Be very careful about throwing characters into combat. Belial got felled by the Broodlord because of his instant death rules, and Ezekiel died pretty quickly as well. In fact for Deathwing I'd go so far as to say if you are going to commit Belial into a combat that has an independent character, either decline any challenge or make sure he can't cause instant death on Belial before accepting or declaring a challenge.

I'd also recommend trying out the rules for terrain placement, it adds an extra dimensionality to your tactics

[Godswildcard]

I've got some basic questions about Deathwing.

1) When you reference a DW squad, how many termies are you talking about?
2) How do most people model Belial?
3) Is a footslogging, Large squad (10) Deathwing List viable? Seems that that would be pretty tough to stare down at, if not a bit slow.

Those of the top of my head. Thinking about starting up a Deathwing Force.

[Finn]

I've got some basic questions about Deathwing.

1) When you reference a DW squad, how many termies are you talking about?
2) How do most people model Belial?
3) Is a footslogging, Large squad (10) Deathwing List viable? Seems that that would be pretty tough to stare down at, if not a bit slow.

Those of the top of my head. Thinking about starting up a Deathwing Force.

1) Deathwing squads have a unit size of 5 - no more or less.
2) Belial is usually modeled with TH/SS, as master-crafter power sword and storm bolter or twin lightning claws are generally poor choices.
3) See 1, but yes - I think foot DW remains viable. It's biggest drawback is that it is slow as molasses.