just to run off topic a little (I may have missed it in the rules discussion)
does that rule apply to ONLY flamers, or anything that uses the flame template?
(Am thinking Acid Spray here for some reason)
just to run off topic a little (I may have missed it in the rules discussion)
does that rule apply to ONLY flamers, or anything that uses the flame template?
(Am thinking Acid Spray here for some reason)
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Its only for weapons with the soulburn type as far as I can tell so no its not all flamers just some template weapons. see the psychic powers for an idea of what I mean.
I was replying in this thread to someone who said that vehicles will always be firing at you until you destroy them, and in another where someone said vehicle suppression was impossible, you have to destroy the vehicle to do so. On both accounts, this is not true.Originally Posted by Balerion
Your point is exactly right in that the quantity of results that directly stop a vehicle from firing its weapons is reduced, however there are still damage results that either stop a vehicle firing, significantly reduce the chances of shots hitting their targets, and not to be forgotten can stop a vehicle from moving, either briefly or permanently, which isn't to be overlooked either.
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If I am reading this right, Nids do get a few nice treats in the assault phase- Pile in at initiative steps allows both sides models to move in to engage the enemy (or do their best) up to 3 inches at the start of each initiative step. Essentially, instead of the opponent getting to move 6" towards you and bring more of their models in, you get 3 inches and the opponent gets 3 inches. Sort of like 3 extra inches of charge range (so long as at least one model makes it into btb on the charge) and 3 inches less for enemy models to get closer.
Another bonus for nids- If you charge a unit in difficult terrain that is already locked in combat, you ignore the I penalty for charging into difficult terrain. With nids, this makes it even more worthwhile to charge more expendable units into the enemy to eat overwatch and tie up the enemy, as once they are tied up, you get to attack at normal initiative.
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Wes, Thats was a rules in 5th as well, its why I charged units in cover with Trygons/Tyrants and then brought the Horms in NEXT turn. Glad to see it hasn't changed though.
edit: Oh right I see because charges are done one at a time now you hit em with a trygon take the overwatch and I1 then smake em with gaunts that strike at I in the same turn.....that would be nasty, might explain the change to multi charge attacks to prevent you pulling that along the whole line.
Sadly not. Page 28 in the section charging through difficult terrain. "If the enemy units charged were already locked in combat from a previous turn..." Still works the same as it did in 5th.
Pretty lack luster FAQ. Nids are pretty much in the same place if not worse off. Thank you GW from saving me the money I would have invested in a new book etc by releasing them today.
It is better to have a gun and not need it rather than need a gun and not have it.
I don't know if anyone's noticed, but page 28 of 6E, 3rd paragraph:
"If all of the enemy units charged were already locked in combat from a previous turn or had gone to ground, the Initiative penalty for assaulting through cover does not apply"
EDIT: Ninja'ed. Still seems rather useful for the only army capable of crapping out disposable free units left right and center.
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I thought it worked the same in 5th?
It is better to have a gun and not need it rather than need a gun and not have it.
Hmm, so Hive Guard are pretty worthless for penetrating vehicles now that they have a -1 on the damage table for being AP-4 (Still amuses me that an IMPALER cannon is AP-4)... Tyrannofexes' Rupture cannons are AP-4... Heavy Venom cannons with suffer a -2 on the damage table now...
So it looks like Zoanthropes and Monstrous Creature assaults are the only way to even try to break a vehicle without mass fire hoping for glances.
That's kinda depressing and pigeonholes lists (not like they weren't pigeonholed in 5th, but still)
I'm kind of surprised they didn't make Crushing Claws AP 1.
It would be nice if they made crushing claws useful at some point for their retarded cost. Armor bane would have been nice along with ap1.
It is better to have a gun and not need it rather than need a gun and not have it.
AP 4 WEAPONS DO NOT ADD -1 TO THE VEHICLE DAMAGE RESULTS.
If you haven't read the rulebook at this point, just stop commenting. You're not helping smooth the 6th edition transition by coughing up two week-old rumours that turned out to be false.
Huh, you what now? Where you reading this -1 and -2? - Ningered!
My thoughts from reading the rule book is that I feel overall Nids have been slightly weakened by the new rulebook overall, and we are still the worst or second worse codex by a good head and entire body!
Reasons why I feel this are as follows from what I have read so far.
1. Shooting - The change in rapid fire and the ability to overwatch assault units hurts us more than other armies as overall we are an assault orientated force in the main. The reduction in cover again hurts us as I expect we will have fewer models getting across the board to get in to combat.
2. Fleet Nerf. - As documented many times I feel the loss of running and charging will mean in a slower army crossing the table, meaning yet again fewer models able to do the damage back in return.
3. Gone to ground - Units gone to ground only being able to snap-shot and looses the bonus of being in cover when being charged - I think this will hurt hive guard (hiding from heavy weapons) and gaunts when holding objectives.
4. Assault through cover still is the biggest problem as far as I am concerned and the diagram on Pg 22 pretty much means that unless you can place models extremely well in the movement phase it will be hard to ever get a charge off without hitting I1.
5. Mutiple Combats - Blocks of units (like imperial guard) are going to be slow and cumbersome to remove off objectives with an elite combat unit (like genstealers)
6. Inability to charge from infiltration - although rare, it was often nice to be able to charge on turn 1!
7.Grenades - When are you ever going to want to charge a MC in to troops with Krak Grenades? A Trygon charging a Tactical squad, assuming no PF on sergent, would strike at the same time, but only be wounded on 6s. (in 5th) now the same 10 marines wound the Trygon on 4s. One of the bonus of being such a large T6 creature has now been removed in one swipe! (Its even worse that a SpaceMarine can now save 15 points and take a Melta bomb rather than a powerfist and still get a Str 8 hit)
8. Lack of AA. I do predict that Air Units will quickly become a new meta in 6th, and so far I see no weapons with the skyfire rule and the FAQ states we cant even use emplaced weapons!
9. Ageis Defence lines - Wooo a guaranteed piece of difficult terrain to ensure we hit at I1.
I am genuinely looking forward to playing a game of 6th edition, but I feel I will be facing a defeat from the outset.
Try one-day old rumor.AP 4 WEAPONS DO NOT ADD -1 TO THE VEHICLE DAMAGE RESULTS.
If you haven't read the rulebook at this point, just stop commenting. You're not helping smooth the 6th edition transition by coughing up two week-old rumours that turned out to be false.
Technically true, although the damage table has been changed so that unless you roll explodes! you are getting a result 1 worse than you would in 5th, meaning all weapons that aren't AP1 or 2 are functionally as if they were at -1 to damage from what they were in 5th ed, which is probably what they were getting at. Regardless, writing stuff like this is confusing for others trying to learn the new rules so dirty approximations are best avoided.
As to the actual point being made, whilst hive guard are now less likely roll a destroyed result on the damage table than before they only need to get 3 glancing or penetrating hits to destroy most vehicles (2 for speeders). 3 hive guard will on average wreck a rhino by stripping its hull points without even needing to roll on the damage table. Overall the chances of destroying a rhino with hive guard are higher now than in 5th according to my quick and dirty maths (and far more reliable).
@Blink: You can easily wreck most vehicles with rear armour 10 by charging them with a brood of gribblies with adrenal glands. You only need 18 attacks to wreck a stationary vehicle and 27 to wreck a moving one. Our anti tank is a lot better now:
-Zoanthropes don't become crap just because there is a psychic hood somewhere on the board. Deny the witch is a factor though.
-With hull points Hive guard are better at destroying low armour vehicles than before - which is there job.
-In combat we are hitting vehicles on at worst 3s, rather than the usual 4s or 6s. Monstrous creatures can kill them, gribblies can wobble them to death.
Crushing claws are a little better than before as you are more likely to hit a fast moving vehicle with them so they are on average better than re-rolls to hit from sything talons. Still not sure they are worth the points though.
So cheer up nid players! We may or may not be hosed in 6th but vehicles are not amongst our problems.
Last edited by unknown_lifeform; 30-06-2012 at 19:38.
I'm pretty sure this diagram is a contradiction of the charging rules themselves, which leads to an interesting and confusing situation.
In the diagram, the bottom model is the closest to the enemy, and therefore the lead-off charger. He does not need to pass through terrain to reach his required point of contact. You're supposed to then be able to move the other models in the charging unit in any order you want, as long as they maintain coherency and go into B2B where possible.. and you could easily do that in the example picture without anyone crossing through terrain.
Huh.
Well, the unit must move to engage as many enemy models in B2B contact as possible, the bottom 3 Guardians would move directly towards their opposite number, and you have to assume that the charge throw isn't enough to allow the 2 Guardians behind the crater to engage by going around it.
It is left open to interpretation though, as there is no mention of how far the charge range is. Assuming that the distance for the top most guarding reaching the un-engaged marines is more than the possible 12" by going around.
Last edited by Macragge; 30-06-2012 at 20:09.
If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat!!!
So, got my copy, quickly scanned for rumour validation.
Well .. that Harpy got more interesting. With Vector Strike it can engage up to AV11 Flyers in a fly-by-attack. Now we need the FAQ to allow "Smash" to be used as of now it only covers close combat and VS is not CC. This could also include Adrenal Glands. I had just hoped that flying MCs would have been able to actually charge another flyer. Can't you imagine a Harpy clinging to a Stormraven, ripping open it's armour plates? This would not be OP for the nids as we have ZERO skyfire and no means to get it via allies or installations.
Not sure what to think regarding the Carnifex. At S9 it doesn't really need Smash, but on the other it does allow for an extra S and the ability to reroll armour pen which is quite useful against AV14. Also, Crushing Claws got extra interesting now that vehicles are either WS0 or WS1, which makes them a lot easier to hit for the Carni and you might have the chance with Smash to get an extra attack if you roll a 2A+ on the extra D3, thus having the chance to completely wreck a Land Raider in 1 close combat round. I dont know if podding it would be a good thing in 6th. I usually had good effect with it. If I do, I'd prob run it Crusher-fex for anti-heavy-armour or standard Screamer-killer for anti-inf/med-armour. However, Trygons do look like a better option with them being W6.
I am less worried by Overwatch now that I have the book. Only snap shots at 6+ to hit is ofc deadly when facing a tactical marine squad with the renaissanced Heavy Bolter+Flamer combo, but I was afraid that they had introduced the old Overwatch rules. Still, Raveners have taken a big hit here.
Fleet allows us to reroll charge distance and we don't have to roll all dice, just the ones we are unhappy with. Not uba but better than feared. But disallowing Run + charge is blah. That was one of the strengths of the Hormagaunt.
Only 1 grenade per unit against MCs ... better that feared.
Genestealers got hurt alot with. No assault after outlflank? Why, why why why? Are you shocked to comprehend that it was your turn to enter the battle and therefore are stunned unable to charge? If so, why does this not apply to shooting from outflank?
I'm glad that Toxin Sacks are still as effective as in 5th.
Not sure what to think an an overall scale. The battles must decide.
Last edited by Voloch; 03-07-2012 at 13:46.
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From shooting yes, not in close combat. I believe a tactical squad will be hitting your MC with 10 men's worth of krak.
As I told my friend earlier The main issue was that if your opponent knew you had outflanking genstlears they deployed bunched in the middle of the table which meants it was useually easier to get cover saves from their troops firing through their own men or to get a mass assault off. Now they know they can deploy at the edges spreading out more, knowing they have at least one turn of shooting to remove any outflanking units. Outflanking was a psychological thing more than anything.
One big bonus IMO is that if we destroy a vehicle in CC the occupants can't charge us on their next turn. So pop open that rhino and the tasty humans inside can just fire their puny guns for a turn, before we shot them to bits and crush them in CC.
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