Nids to Nots

[daboarder]

You are aware that hullpoints is ENTIRELY a buff to nids right? In that its a rule that hurts every army except nids...

Overwatch vs. being reliably faster at crossing the table. Nids win out on that.

Also, I'd hardly call flamers a "wall of fire". D3 hits is fairly pitiful.

As for krak: 1/3 the attacks, for 3x the wounds. sounds fair enough to me.


So yes. Nids are completely screwed...

How the hell are nids faster across the table?

Ravenors are average 19.5', Used to be 19 minimum

Hormagaunts are now 6+2D6 maximum, used to be 6+D6+6 giving a minimum of 13' max of 18'

Trygons, 6+2D6 down form 6+D6+6.

you do know how averages work don't you.

Lets not forget,

Overwatch, Casualty removal from the front, 2D6 charges, no charge after run, Pile in at I, Loss of I on FC, Nerf to FNP, Changes to Preferred enemy making it pointless to most Nid units, removal of effective Vehicle suppression, Loss of attacks when multi-charging, Loss of 2D6 Pen on MC's, Cover remaining the same.....How do you think these rules don't monumentally screw us and what rules do you think makes up for it? The extra single AP- attack on our MC's?

Picture it this way, you charge a rhino and kill it, the unit inside shoots you in its turn, shoot you in your turn, then strikes first in combat....

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

High Initiative helps Tyranids clear out weapon specialists. Then again, not all Tyranids have high Initiative. There's Carnifexes (...just saying, they do exist...) and pretty much anybody but Raveners that charges through cover. Suddenly, going at a lower Initiative is good, especially if we can only lose the front few guys in swinging distance, then hit back with a wall of blades. And of course, scrapping No Retreat means that it doesn't matter how much our gribbles lose by, so long as they hang on with one gribble left.

Tyranid playability is going to come down to missions. What do deployment zones look like? What are the rules on taking objectives? How long are the games? Did KP get fixed?

[kaimarion]

Was looking at the rulebook earlier and noticed you can slap MCs with melta-bombs now .

[daboarder]

as to deployment zones all I can say is, BREAKTHROUGH, one in 3 games you will be charging up the table along short table edges....

[Readstoomuch]

Drake actually has the right of it. Charging through cover isn't quite as bad as it was in 5E, provided you do it with a large enough horde. It seems like GW made massed gribblies more viable, in general.

[Balerion]

High Initiative helps Tyranids clear out weapon specialists.

Not unless the weapon specialist has a different armour save.

Then again, not all Tyranids have high Initiative. There's Carnifexes (...just saying, they do exist...)

Uh, yeah, but how does pile-in-by-initiative help Carnifexes (btw, can we just start calling this "stepping up" like in WHFB, so it's easier to type)? It's almost impossible to get a squad of 'fexes in combat where one or more of them is unengaged (the only scenario where stepping up would be useful to them). In most situations they will hit after their enemies do, just like they do in 5th. In other cases, they'll endure hits from the rank and file, strike back, and then watch as Power-fist/axe specialists step up and hit them.

and pretty much anybody but Raveners that charges through cover. Suddenly, going at a lower Initiative is good, especially if we can only lose the front few guys in swinging distance, then hit back with a wall of blades. And of course, scrapping No Retreat means that it doesn't matter how much our gribbles lose by, so long as they hang on with one gribble left.

Good point, I'll give you this one. Stepping up will help our large units when we have to fight in terrain.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Not sure how you get to that. As far as I can see nids have 2 HQ and 3 FA slots for JI, like most books that have it at all. In fact other than BA and Tau I don't recall any codex that has JI elsewhere.

BA, which DOES have the highest? Sang Guard in Elites, Death Company and Assaults as troops, in addition to several HQ's and Fast Attacks.

[samiens]

Important boost- enemy units have to get out of their transport to claim or contest objectives

[Polaria]

You are aware that hullpoints is ENTIRELY a buff to nids right? In that its a rule that hurts every army except nids...

Technically I'd say Hull Points are a buff to 'nids and daemons. Its also debatable that hull points are a buff to Necrons. New vehicle close combat rules (WS0 when stationary, WS1 when moving) is a HUGE buff to 'nids and daemons. Also MCs getting to double their strenght and +1 to damage table against vehicles by halving their attacks is buffing 'nids.

Whats really going to hurt 'nids though is the Flyer rules. You can't assault a zooming flyer...

[ehlijen]

BA, which DOES have the highest? Sang Guard in Elites, Death Company and Assaults as troops, in addition to several HQ's and Fast Attacks.

Yes, which is why I mentioned them in my short list. I'm not sure what you're saying?

[the_picto]

Does anyone know how the grenades against MCs works? Is it like against walkers in 5th (1 attack that hits on a 6)?

Do gargoyles gain anything from being both fleet and jump infantry, apart from rerolling the run dice?

[ehlijen]

All I've heard is that meltabombs apparently have the same slow to strike rule as powerfists, but krak grenades do not.

[williamsond]

Hormagaunts just got better if they are out of synapse, you really want the feed behaviour to kick in as it provideds some awesome bonuses now with the changes to the universal special rules.

[Commandojimbob]

I view Nids as getting some much needed boosts :

- No "Fearless" saves at the end of combat
- Hitting vehicles on a 3+ rather than a 4 or mostly 6+ in CC
- Rage being a +2 on charge - why do you want dedicated "Feed" assault units in Synapse ???
- Generally units are faster now (ideal for assault based armies)
- Gargoyles, Shrikes, Winged Tyrants, Harpies get "Impact" attacks
- Harpies and Winged Tyrants just got scary !
- Tyrannofexes and Tyrants with armoured shell are now going to be hard to kill in CC
- Troops cannot hide in a box and hold objectives
- venomthropes got a nice boost with the fact that cover is now 5+ and that defense grenades now grant stealth if you shot within a certain range (i believe)
- Preferred Enemy will help shooting now
- Ravenors just got nasty, ignoring cover, hitting at I5 !
- Sky slasher Swarms might be worth considering now for the impact hits.
- Carnifexes just got nasty !(now their points make sense - all those attacks and not needing to sacrifice any, hitting on 3+)
- Heavy and normal Venom Cannons now make sense (although why they gave a -1 I dont know)
- Hull points make vehicles much easier to kill for Nids
- Devourer Termagants in spore just got nastier - all those shots and only needing 3 glances to wreck most rear AV10 vehicles - combo this up with preferred enemy !
- Access to more Psychic powers
- *guessing here* I believe Boneswords will be AP2 when they are FAQ'ed
- Expandable FOC means that all those ELITES are accessible
- Dare I say it but Pyrovores got a tiny boost with teh generic "close combat attacks ignore armour saves" (Still cant see a use for them though)

For me that is quite a lot of buffs - though to balance this off it would be good to get the a nerf list as well.

[daboarder]

I view Nids as getting some much needed boosts :

- No "Fearless" saves at the end of combat
Good
- Hitting vehicles on a 3+ rather than a 4 or mostly 6+ in CC
However we lost 2D6 Pen'
- Rage being a +2 on charge - why do you want dedicated "Feed" assault units in Synapse ???
Too situational and the drawbacks aren't really worth it
- Generally units are faster now (ideal for assault based armies)
NO! All units are slower the average charge range of most units is now the MINIMUM charge range they used have.
- Gargoyles, Shrikes, Winged Tyrants, Harpies get "Impact" attacks
Good
- Harpies and Winged Tyrants just got scary !
Good
- Tyrannofexes and Tyrants with armoured shell are now going to be hard to kill in CC
Unfortunately they are no more survivable to shooting so they'll just become target priority
- Troops cannot hide in a box and hold objectives
They can however hide in a box wait for use to pop it and then shoot us, shoot us again and strike first in the ensuing combat
- venomthropes got a nice boost with the fact that cover is now 5+ and that defense grenades now grant stealth if you shot within a certain range (i believe)
- Preferred Enemy will help shooting now
But has had its guts ripped out for Nids in combat, any unit that can easily get it already had Scything talons and toxin sacs
- Ravenors just got nasty, ignoring cover, hitting at I5 !
But slower and still suffer from powerfist syndrome
- Sky slasher Swarms might be worth considering now for the impact hits.
Maybe still very fragile
- Carnifexes just got nasty !(now their points make sense - all those attacks and not needing to sacrifice any, hitting on 3+)
Still not really worth their points though
- Heavy and normal Venom Cannons now make sense (although why they gave a -1 I dont know)
technically they are worse they are an effective -2 on the table being AP4
- Hull points make vehicles much easier to kill for Nids
But harder to suppress
- Devourer Termagants in spore just got nastier - all those shots and only needing 3 glances to wreck most rear AV10 vehicles - combo this up with preferred enemy !
Good
- Access to more Psychic powers
Ranom powers and most of our psykers need our power to do their job
- *guessing here* I believe Boneswords will be AP2 when they are FAQ'ed
I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see them be AP3
- Expandable FOC means that all those ELITES are accessible
Yet we get no allies
- Dare I say it but Pyrovores got a tiny boost with teh generic "close combat attacks ignore armour saves" (Still cant see a use for them though)
I'd expect these types of rules to be Erratta'd to an AP value, likely 3

For me that is quite a lot of buffs - though to balance this off it would be good to get the a nerf list as well.

I just don't see any of the hardcore buffs most other codex's are seeing, anything that give us a boost has a caveat resulting in a loss of power. Its a step sideways at most so far as I can currently tell.

[malisteen]

Did we really expect a new edition to fix the problems with the Tyranid book, though? The nid book is full of a lot of problems and design flaws unique to that book, I don't see a general edition rule set helping it much.

[Macragge]

The main issue with the Tyranid codex is the majority of the costings, not necessarily the rules. You could swallow losing so many Termagants and Hormagaunts to gunfire if they were a pt cheaper, and you could max out squads for less. Same can be said for most MCs, Carnifex as mentioned is still barely worth the points, I've heard someone say the Tyrannofex is now worth the points because it is more survivable in combat (not to gunfire though) and the Rupture cannon is better (Don't see how, it is AP4, so is worse at getting an outright kill) and some are raving about the winged Hive Tyrant, on the face of it a damn good shout too, but at 230pts without regular ranged weaponry, and any upgrades, it is still a significant portion of your list, and again a little OTT on the costing (IMO)

The 6th edition rule set would work great for Tyranids with the codex as it is if only some of the costings were a little (and I do mean a little) cheaper. This then is in the hands or the Errata, but when have GW ever been in danger of making any sort of U-turn on a codex?

I fully expect Tyranids to be playable, and even enjoyable in 6th, much like they were under 5th, but not especially competitive. But again, we're left in the same position we were in the last edition, with a mediocre Codex doing that damage, and not the core rules at fault, so it'll just be another wait until the next Codex lands, sadly.

As a side note, I've not received my BRB yet, so not had chance to read the full rules, only basing my assumptions on the information I have read, which it has to be said, on the whole I'm very much excited about.

[the_picto]

- Generally units are faster now (ideal for assault based armies)
NO! All units are slower the average charge range of most units is now the MINIMUM charge range they used have.

That's not really true though. A carnifex used to have a charge of 6", but now has an average of 7" and a maximum of 12". Shrikes have gone from a 6" charge to 2d6" with a reroll. Raveners get a 12" basic move, so are now faster in the turns they aren't charging.

Given how much people complain about the nid lack of assault grenades, it seems odd that all the random charge complaints are comparing it to charging across open ground in 5th.

[Macragge]

It has to be said, Shrikes for me are one unit that have become a lot better, and which will incline me to up my squad of 3 to 5, especially if Boneswords do get an advantage in the FAQ over generic power weapons.

[Kaelarr]

I do find all the whinging quite amusing. Nids have gone from uncompetative to competative in this edition. The flying hive tyrant is one of the best units in the game now. Period.

- Hitting vehicles on a 3+ rather than a 4 or mostly 6+ in CC
However we lost 2D6 Pen' - But MC's got Smash! and only need to glance most vehicles 3 times before they die.

- Rage being a +2 on charge - why do you want dedicated "Feed" assault units in Synapse ???
Too situational and the drawbacks aren't really worth it - What drawbacks? Rage is now only +2A on the charge. And hardly situational

- Generally units are faster now (ideal for assault based armies)
NO! All units are slower the average charge range of most units is now the MINIMUM charge range they used have. Completely untrue, most units are faster. Units with Fleet are marginally slower than they were, everything else is quicker

- Troops cannot hide in a box and hold objectives
They can however hide in a box wait for use to pop it and then shoot us, shoot us again and strike first in the ensuing combat - Your talking like you never got shot at before? Snapfire will only kill a couple and why do they get to strike first? Depends on I and terrain etc... And if you position your troops right you can deny them attacks and follow up with masses of attacks from you.

- venomthropes got a nice boost with the fact that cover is now 5+ and that defense grenades now grant stealth if you shot within a certain range (i believe)
- Preferred Enemy will help shooting now
But has had its guts ripped out for Nids in combat, any unit that can easily get it already had Scything talons and toxin sacs - So? Yes that rule helps some units and is useless on others - looking at the other bonuses, ill live with that one.

- Ravenors just got nasty, ignoring cover, hitting at I5 !
But slower and still suffer from powerfist syndrome - Actually faster and that depends on what support your giving them now. Biomancy and its use will change things considerably

- Heavy and normal Venom Cannons now make sense (although why they gave a -1 I dont know)
technically they are worse they are an effective -2 on the table being AP4 - Not worse at all really, now that glancing takes away hull points.

- Hull points make vehicles much easier to kill for Nids
But harder to suppress - For everyone. Unless you wreck a vehicle it WILL be shooting at you, you cant stop it with any army.

- Access to more Psychic powers
Ranom powers and most of our psykers need our power to do their job - Seriously... How many of the hive tyrant powers did you use? Probably none because tyranid primes were better... Broodlords will be farrrr better off with biomancy. Same with Tervigons. Zoanthropes will depend on what role you want them to fulfill.

- Expandable FOC means that all those ELITES are accessible
Yet we get no allies - Why do you want allies? Do you want to sacrifice FoC slots to have something from another list in there? Its not like allies give you extra slots here...