Do goblins make a better tarpit/anvil than night goblins for 100 points less?

[Malorian]

I'd go. It's something different and you don't get many games in as it is so you might as well

Maybe go with a completely different kind of list and just have a fire ball ring on the bsb. There is a good chance you won't see many magic users at that level and that would allow you to get more units in. Then just design it like a 7th ed list with several blocks of 20.

Have fun with it

[Shimmergloom]

I could even use some regular orcs...

I think we're having 4 rounds too.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

With only four rounds I'd load up on the magic and war machines then go for points denial if building for the sole purpose of winning at 1250. Infantry doesn't have much affect on the first two turns of the game compared to the rest of the game. A tarpit unit might not earn you much in the way of victory points, but any tarpit that can't survive through turn four isn't a real tarpit unit and if it manages to hold for the whole game then they aren't giving up any VPs. The game you are describing sounds like it could be fun, but it's a completely different animal from the 2K+ full six turn game so requires a different mindset. I think that 20 NGs with hw/shield combo is just giving away points. They can't do anything aside from possibly getting into something's flank and even then won't contribute much. 20 or 25 is fine if they are a delivery unit for getting fanatics out where you want them, but I wouldn't depend on 20NG to do anything on their own. In that case, bows are probably the better option as it gives them more flexibility and they still do just as much damage if you get the opportunity to charge them into something's flank.

[EvanDynamic]

Sorry it took this long to get back to you with the results of your list.

In a word, eagles.

I was playing a High Elf army that was combat-centered with a unit each of spearmen, sword masters and Sea Guard as well as a token unit of archers and two eagles.

We both more-or-less deployed facing one another in the center. I deployed the trolls in 3 units of 2 rather than 1 of six. I wanted to have something to control traffic.

I rolled first turn and basically just marched everything forward. One troll pair failed stupidity and my goblin vault got held up. It was either this turn or the next that Foot of Gork stomped the archers to two models and took ranks off of the Sea Guard. If I ever have 5 power dice and Foot of Gork, I have trouble seeing a reason to cast anything but boosted Foot. I know they exist but I rarely see them.

Anyway, he used his turn to not wound my trolls with his archers and moved forward to leave me with above average charge ranges. He also maneuvered the eagles onto the flanks.

Turn 2 I had two troll units go stupid and narrowly avoid march-blocking my black orcs (opposite his Sea Guard). As the charges were impossibly long I marched right up into his face. Trolls covered the corners of my units' flanks from eagle interference. Magic was ineffective.

One eagle was able to squeeze through and sat between and overlapping both the savages and the black orcs. I lost a few savages to Flames of Kadon (sp?).

Turn 3 I had my savages fail Animosity and squabble. They had to charge the eagle which wheeled me at right angles to the battleline. From here on the game was dominated by my trolls mis-directing everyone to both army's disadvantage.

I blocked his Swordmasters from a flank charge into my now exposed Savages with one of the troll pairs. The trolls on the other flank were stupid but still managed to block up his spearmen. I charged the Black Orcs into the Seaguard and the last troll pair into the flank of the eagle in hopes of an overrun into the Swordmasters. The Savages, now re-directed by the eagle, would have to overrun and stop short at the back of my black orcs anyway. If the troll overran first past them into the Swordmasters great, I could hold them off my Savages, if they couldn't overrun out of the way then it was the same result : the savages would be facing into the back end of a friendly unit. Well, they didn't make it and blocked the Savages.

On his turn he had two trolls in front of the Swordmasters. This meant he couldn't move the unit. He could only charge one troll and hit the other. Since the troll pair blocking my savages couldn't close the door without landing atop the savages, his charge was... unique. I looked at it as a failed charge since no amount of finagling could help. He regarded such a rule interpretation as impossible since it effectively made it impossible for his Swordmasters, my trolls, and my Savages from moving for the rest of the game as they were in a tangled knot, each having stopped one inch from the other. We played through and resolved his charge as a combat. The trolls held the first turn. In the other combat, the black orcs took another loss but the Seaguard unit was shrinking faster than the black orcs (his spearmen still delayed by my stupidity troll).

In the next turn (4), since he didn't kill my trolls that were in combat in the funky charge by the Swordmasters, it meant I couldn't reform to face that combat and get out from under my other trolls that were blocking me with the 1" rule. So I couldn't turn to face the Swordmasters. So I charged that troll out of the way of my Savages and into his Swordmasters (which was now possible due to the Swordmaster's combat reform). The other trolls charged into the flank of his remaining Seaguard. In combat his Swordsmen killed one troll unit but not the other that had just charged.

More of the same for the rest of the game. I wiped out the Seaguard but not his Prince. So the Spearmen were able to flank charge and wipe out my black orcs. His Swordsmen hacked through troll after troll eventually leaving combat on turn 6. Rather than charge my savages into combat late in the game, I reformed to give my shaman LOS to try to snipe some Victory Points to no avail(the goblin vault was hopelessly delayed initially and the characters were never able to fall back to join them).

In the end I think he won by something like 700/800 points.

Lessons learned:

Although you can use leadership to prevent Frenzy from drawing Savages into ill-advised combats, Animosity on the other hand can draw them in. If there is a re-director available (eagles) then you might need your own unit to screen the Savages by making the charge impossible. Even just a Fanatic would suffice.

Deploy into the goblin vault from the get-go. It doesn't matter if you think you need your general on the leading edge of the deployment zone to be able to reach along the battle line to cover the troll's stupidity rolls. Or if you want your characters to avoid Animosity by joining Black Orcs. Just use the goblin vault as a turret from which to cast and shoot.

An Orc army based on combat that cannot deal with re-directors cannot win favorable charges and winnable combats. If the enemy re-directors cannot be controlled, a combat army is in immediate danger of losing the game. In the face of this, if one unit is re-directed, have the other units wait until it is free. For instance, rather than charging with my Black Orcs after seeing my Savages Squabble charge, I could have possibly moved them out of the way or used Hand of Gork to clear the path for the Savage's inevitable overrun. If re-directed, re-evaluate your battle plan and the situation you're in. Consider how it looks to the other army and what the they will try to do to exploit it.

I'm not sure what the take away lesson is regarding the trolls. Without deploying them alongside the savages, the Swordmasters would have been able to charge into the flank of the Savages immediately after the Savages squabbled. In turn 3, this could have put him well on track to tabling my entire army. They did get in the way, but better stalemate that way than immediately crumble.

Conclusion: I need an answer for Great Eagles. I'm thinking snotling pump wagons may be the most economical, reliable, and effective counter to them, especially with Outriggas. Spearchukka's are too unreliable, the Doomdiver is marginally more reliable for this task but it is overkill when it could be routing elite cavalry in the early game. It is also more expensive than the Eagles so it is a point devaluation. Our magic ranges are a bit low to reach out and grab an eagle and it too is a costly investment in shamans to get the necessary spells and then use their power dice on 50 point Eagles.

Any other suggests on how I can counter Great Eagles, especially at 1500 points?

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

Trolls are a bit of a gamble. The only things you can do is keep them near the general and BSB, and they can still mess things up. They are harder to thin out than a unit of squigs however and they will tear face in melee.

You have the right idea for the eagle. Chariots, cavalry, war machines, magic, or even small arms fire can do the trick. They are only T4 with 3W and no save. Think about how easy it is to take out three Orc Boys with no saves. That's what it would take to remove each eagle. The trouble with the pump wagons is that they don't move all that fast on average. Their speed is anywhere from 3"-18" with an average move of 10.5" if you pump it harder which is really needed to get it out there. It's not going to catch that eagle or any fast cavalry that is likely to be used in a similar manner without a sail and then you are looking at an increased chance of it going in a random direction (4"-24" with average 14"). I think pump wagons are fun and characterful. They can be great fire magnets when used in pairs or a group of four running up one flank as even people that see them in use from time to time don't know exactly what to expect from them. Then again, they are also only T4 with 3W with a 6+ save so are pretty close to being just as vulnerable as the Great Eagle individually. If you feel you need an answer to heavily armoured knights or something similar then they can work nicely there if you can get them into the knights, but trolls will be more dependable in getting to those knights when you want to make contact with the knights on a particular turn which should tell you something. The pump wagon could be a nice answer to the eagle if you buy the sail and pump it, but it's a gamble compared to a unit of wolf riders or something similar especially if you are just looking at taking the one. That said, a unit of four driving down one flank is a scary proposition for many armies, especially if they have war machines, but those four will see a lot of concentrated fire. Then again, if they focus on the pump wagons then you are more likely to face them in melee with no losses from your other units. A unit of twenty archers may bring one down, but they would have to dedicate a unit to each or a warmachine to each as the pump wagons get spaced out as they move across the table.

Again, I would take a minimum of two if you plan to take pump wagons because if they become targets it is pretty easy for them to fall to shooting. Three or four is better as they have to dedicate all their shooting to them unless a good chunk of their army is high strength shooting if they don't want to take impact hits from at least two pump wagons. They can careen out of control which is more likely to happen the harder they are pushed, but at least they don't have to deal with animosity.

Pretty much any unit you would use for cleaning up after melee combats (ie: you win combat but want to reform to face a juicier target or can't catch the unit that lost so use a smaller unit to deal with the broken one) would work against the eagle. Just think, "What options do I have that possess the mobility or range to kill three Orc Boys with no armour that are not in guaranteed charge range?" and you should find a solution that fits your play style. You may want to extend this to a tool for dealing with light cavalry in general as many armies use light cavalry in a similar manner.

[Yowzo]

Any other suggests on how I can counter Great Eagles, especially at 1500 points?

Vindictive glare. Cheap to cast 3d6 s3 hits.

If you don't run little waagh magic, then something fast of your own. Wolf riders or wolf chariots preferably as they're cheap and even if they don't break the eagle on the charge, his value as redirector is lost.

Trolls are invariably great, but they must be babysitted. I don't think you can fit 3 units of them in a regular ld/bsb bubble.

[Shimmergloom]

4 rounds means 4 games, not 4 turns.

[EvanDynamic]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I think wolf riders are invaluable against things like eagles. I over-looked them. My spider riders tend to panic under shooting in turn 1 or 2. But wolf riders get their 4+ save which should help. Any other tips to keep fast cav from panicking due to shooting losses?

Vindictive glare is a good option in most games but at 1500 points I'm not sure the Little Waaagh is as powerful since I'll have fewer units, and thus fewer opportunities to benefit from hexes and augments. And I did just barely got all 3 troll pairs into into my bubbles. It was a battle line of Troll, 6 wide savages with Gen & BSB on right corner, Troll, 7 wide black orcs, and trolls. The trolls were in a single-file pair to minimize frontage while still getting max supporting attacks. Being a longer troll unit meant that their rear corner stayed in the bubble range longer after their faster movement carries them ahead. My Stupidity rolls were mostly on re-rolled on the General's Ld but I simply whiffed a few of the rolls even so.

Your analysis of the wagons is spot on I think. I always Pump Harder with an Outrigga. While it is random and thus not 100% reliable, being able to charge in any direction makes up for it. I find that eagles thrive by getting outside charge arcs more than anything so the any direction charge is really the winning trait. And opponents are puzzled by wagons like you said. They're doing their job as a deterrent if the opponent tip-toes around them. I think we as the controlling player focus on 'what if they roll low' whereas our opponents focus on 'what if they roll high.' Therefore we under-estimate them and the opponent over-estimates them. The opponent's opinion of them is what really matters though. If it the opponent's eyes, if he elevates them to a higher status above our other more expensive/more powerful units, then he has more or less upgraded them as they are having an increased impact on the battle.

I agree that the statline of the eagle appears vulnerable. But in reality when we look at the units in our army that have the range/mobility to reliably attack them, most are at Str 3 making T4 respectable. Our archers have shortish ranges with BS 3 shots at Str 3. This usually means moving your unit to get into long range so starting at 6's to hit if there is no cover and 5's to wound, which is, the proverbian long shot (with those rolls you would need 54 shots on average to inflict 3 wounds). I think I need to try Spear Chukka's too. Hitting eagles on a base 5 before cover isn't great. But wounding for D3 on 2+ should be good. Ignoring the chance of misfires, it'd take 5 shots on average. People celebrate their cheapness but any points spent on unreliable units seems like too many points to me which is why I've avoided them thus far. How do you factor Chukka's into your battle plans and what do you expect out of them?

[Yowzo]

Your analysis of the wagons is spot on I think. I always Pump Harder with an Outrigga. While it is random and thus not 100% reliable, being able to charge in any direction makes up for it.

I use a gobbo boss on giant squig for that role. Put him the dragonhelm or enchanted shield and spear and you're looking at a 3+AS random distance that hits with 6xS5 attacks on the charge. It's a 40 pts premium over a pump wagon with outrigga, but worth it (plus it comes from hero allowance, and not rare).

I generally keep it hovering around the warmachines to protect them from flankers and fast things. Also a good target for sneaky stabbin, as it almost always gets a flank charge.

[Urgat]

Just saw that thread. Common goblins, you run them with shields and bows. If you can put in the BSB with the spider banner, it's great... her... fun.

[bigbear bailey]

Nets are way to good to even look at reg gobbos imho.

[Yowzo]

Nets are way to good to even look at reg gobbos imho.

You don't always have the points for nets on smaller units. Nets will buy you over 12 common gobbos with shields.

Also, against S3 and S4, common gobbos with shields are only off by a couple of % points versus NG with nets if you adjust for the nets malfunctioning, a few more bodies could well make the difference there.

Of course, nets also benefit whatever other unit you have on that combat but common gobbos still have their uses.

[Malorian]

common gobbos still have their uses.

They look great beside my savage orcs with spears on the shelf!

[Vaughnilla619]

I haven't used commin gobs yet but a unit of 50 NG with full command, 2 NG big boss' with GW, nets, and spears ranked 5 wide is a great tar pit. I ran 2 of those on both sides of a 40 savage orc unit ranked 7wide with BSB, and behind that was a unit of 15 orcs with my lvl 4.

So that's NG with stubborn 8 re roll, who will hold up units for a long time, and is actually somewhat okay in combat.

Ppl might not like them 5 wide but they beat a horde of 35 empire free company with halberds in the 2nd round of combat and chased them down.

I really want to see what goblins can do tho.

[Vaughnilla619]

So i tested out a unit of NG and regular goblins with same point value against a unit of 20 orcs with additional HW. I ran it like 1st round of combat where the orcs got their +1 Strength. I re created the combat 6 times for each goblin unit. Heres what each unit had and how well they stacked up...

44 goblins with full command, shields, and 3 nasty skullkers.
1) 2 gobs die - 4 orcs die
2) 4 gobs - 0 orcs
3) 4 gobs - 2 orcs
4) 4 gobs - 1 orcs
5) 5 gobs - 1 orcs
6) 6 gobs - 1 orc

average... 4 gobs die a round to the orcs 1.5

25 NG with full command, spears, nets, and 2 NG big bosses with GW.
1) 1 NG dies - 7 orcs die
2) 5 NG - 3 orcs
3) 4 NG - 3 orcs
4) 3 NG - 5 orcs
5) 4 NG - 3 orcs
6) 3 NG - 9 orcs

average... 3 NG die a round to the orcs 5


so... in this example there was a lot of wiffing on dice rolls (almost every round for the orcs attacking the gobs) but for the most part i get a good idea of what each unit brings. In the Goblin unit, sure more will die but they will have just a mass of numbers on their side. They dont win combat very much but hopefully the LD6 is enough. In the NG unit with only a sheild was able to die less then the regular gobs while also putting out much more damage. There will be less models on the NG side BUT they have the ability to actually win combats or at least tie.

IMO goblins are better then NG's in the aspect of you wont win combat but you can take loads more and still have 3 skullkers who can take out enemy characters. The smaller a unit gets, the better NG option becomes. The larger a unit becomes then i think the better a goblin unit becomes. I'd say 35 or less then NG's, 45+ then goblins.

[shortlegs]

I don't get your comparison, nor how you deduced your conclusion from said comparison.

Why did you add the big bosses to the NG unit, when you did not add any regular goblin BB to the goblin unit? And just because your NG unit was smaller in your comparison (because you added the BBs), you somehow deduced that NGs work better in smaller units?

The reason people bring NGs (besides trying to have some fun with fanatics) is the nets. For a blanket price upgrade regardless of the size of the unit, the bigger your unit, the less you pay per model for the net bonus. How does bringing smaller NG units make them better??

[Vaughnilla619]

Idk. I was tired I guess hahaha