Welcome to 6th edition: Say Goodbye to MSUs and Metal Boxes

[Polaria]

Okay, this is what I expect to happen in competitive metagame come the 6th edition:

1) Minimum Size Units in Dedicated Transports Will Die Off

Reasons:
- Hull Points will mean that many armies that spam gauss weaponry or S5 - S6 stuff will be able to glance most transports to death far easier than was ever before possible.
- WS0 when stationary, WS1 when moving (no matter if you are Fast or not) will spell doom to Blood Angel Razorback spam and other similar concepts whenever they face anything with large amount of attacks: Like Tyranids or Daemons.
- Units have to get out of their transport to claim or contest objectives: You can no longer sit inside the metal box parked on objective so minimum size squads will lose the only thing they were ever good at.

Caveats:
- There is really none. This is as clear as it gets. MSUs in Razorbacks are dead.


2) Flyers Will Rule The Skies

Reasons:
- Zooming fliers can only be hit with BS1
- Zooming fliers can't be assaulted... at all
- At any game with less than 2000 points units with Skyfire or Interceptor are going to be very rare so the best Anti-Aircraft Weapon will be another Flier.

Caveats:
- This does not mean Flier Transports will rule the skies. More likely they will not. The transport can be attacked just like a normal vehicle on the turn the passengers embark or disembark. Also the passengers are subject to dying a horrible, horrible death (like S10 no armour saves kind of death) if the transport ever drops from the skies...


3) Infantry Will Inherit The Earth

Reasons:
- Rapid fire is buffed, Snap Shot rule lets heavy weapons fire on the move, Overwatch, Hammer of Wrath... Basically infantry as a whole gets a buff. A big buff. They will be far more usefull than those five-man "token teams" inside metal boxes that ruled the 5th edition.
- Units have to get out of their transport to claim or contest objectives: So basically MSUs are well dead. So what do you use to take objectives... Snipers, Stealth units, full-sized tactical squads, big infantry blobs. Yes, I think you will see far more infantry models on the table in 6th edition

Caveats:
- With Fliers around and with reduced protection from vehicles this does not mean ANY infantry will rule the earth. Oh no. This means you need loads and loads of preferably high armour save and Ld models so they can afford to take the casualties while sitting on the objective. I think I'm so going to love my Tactical Squads again...

[RanaldLoec]

You missed out Squadrons.

1) Now an immobilised vehicle can be left behind rather than instantly be destroyed.

2) Wound allocation works on vehicle squadrons just like on a squad. The nearest vehicle takes all the penetrating and glancing hits until its wrecked or destroyed only then will other glancing or penetrating hits pass to other vehicles.

With the new cover rules and squads been able to focus fire essentially ignoring models in a level of cover chosen by the firing player infantry have become more susceptible to fire power.

Gone are the days of hiding half of a squad of guardsmen in a building with half out in the open to claim a cover save for all your guardsmen.

With the new rules I declare focus fire on cover save of 4+. Now any wounds from my shooting can only be allocated to models with a worse cover save than 4+. So that half a squad outside the building is going to get decimated.

[ehlijen]

MSU was never about vehicles or transports: it was about spamming heavy and special weapons and preventing wound overflow from one unit to the next.

If you have the choice, two units of 5 will still be better than one unit of 10.

The parking lot might be vacated, but MSU will stay with us for as long as overkill can't jump to nearby units.

[Pyriel]

across ALL editions of 40k, MSU was king. this will never change, as small squads means a better ability to spam heavy/special weapons. lets be honest, NOBODY bothers using a bolter if he can do anything to swap it. even real armies use MSU strategies in real life (example: US marines split their squads in small 4-man teams, each with a SAW and grenade launcher. even in real life, nobody, NOBODY spams rifles, the "rifleman" as a full MOS is quite more rare than ppl imagine)

the "one full squad" will almost always be inferior to the "two small squads with double the heavy/special weapons options".

HOWEVER
the transports spam is over, i agree. and unlike what many ppl might think, NO , warhammer 40k was not always kind to mech armies. it was just a 5th edition gimmick. i do think gun-oriented tanks like predators might keep seeing play though, as glances no longer supress.

on flyers:
we'll have to see how bad the limitations of zooming are, how much they hurt in-game. they might be so bad that they force flyers to nearly always act like skimmers, which will be "meh".

what will break 6th edition, though, is allies. i already imagine a Blood Angels assault force with allied Captain Shrike to grant them all Fleet... or an allied stormlord protecting a mass-cc force with nightfight gimmicks.in general, special character allies, esp those with auras, might break the game.

[Polaria]

MSU was never about vehicles or transports: it was about spamming heavy and special weapons and preventing wound overflow from one unit to the next.

If you have the choice, two units of 5 will still be better than one unit of 10.

The parking lot might be vacated, but MSU will stay with us for as long as overkill can't jump to nearby units.

Except now you can't kill more models from the unit that you can actually see. Spreading a big unit partially behind vehicles, wrecks, ruins and other obstructions mean that overkill on any units beyond MSU size is going to be wasted anyway.

what will break 6th edition, though, is allies. i already imagine a Blood Angels assault force with allied Captain Shrike to grant them all Fleet... or an allied stormlord protecting a mass-cc force with nightfight gimmicks.in general, special character allies, esp those with auras, might break the game.

I actually expect that allies will never, ever be a competitive choice. You need 2000 points or more to even get access to Allies and even then you get to choose either taking Allies or taking double number of slots in your own FOC. Six heavies? Yes, please!

Oh, by the way: New Fleet only gives you a reroll on charge distance and Jump Infantry gets Fleet for free so Shrike and Blood Angels won't gain much from each other. Shrike and Purifiers however...

[Coyote81]

I actually expect that allies will never, ever be a competitive choice. You need 2000 points or more to even get access to Allies and even then you get to choose either taking Allies or taking double number of slots in your own FOC. Six heavies? Yes, please!

This is incorrect. You can take allies below 2k pts. Actually the only options you have in less then 2k pts is a normal FOC, an optional Fortifiication and an Allied FOC.

[Bartali]

MSU was never about vehicles or transports: it was about spamming heavy and special weapons and preventing wound overflow from one unit to the next.

If you have the choice, two units of 5 will still be better than one unit of 10.

The parking lot might be vacated, but MSU will stay with us for as long as overkill can't jump to nearby units.

Indeedy.

Re Light Vehicles. Not better, not worse. Just different.
- Hull Points make them easier to kill. However it makes gun transports harder to supress - you need to kill the transport to supress it now.
- While cover has decreased to 5+, it's now easier to get for vehicles. Only 25% of the vehicles needs to be obscured.

Re Flyers
- It's going to depend on the FAQs. As it looks at the moment, units of marine devs/long fangs with skyfire missiles are looking like a pretty strong arguement against flyers.

Re Infantry Marines are better. Xenos are (mostly) worse off.
- Cover nerfed to 5+, and able to target members of a unit outside of cover makes non MEQ very fragile.
- Rapid Fire weapons buffed. Great for MEQ.


In summary - Plus ca change

[malisteen]

Re Infantry Marines are better. Xenos are (mostly) worse off.
- Cover nerfed to 5+, and able to target members of a unit outside of cover makes non MEQ very fragile.
- Rapid Fire weapons buffed. Great for MEQ.

Also note that casualties taken from the front, the potential for short edge deployment, reduced cover saves, and overwatch are all especially harsh on melee focused light infantry like orks and tyranids, while mech melee suffer from the inability to deploy from a vehicle moving more than 6".

[TrangleC]

Another nerf for Transports: When a vehicle gets destroyed in close combat, the passengers are automatically in close combat with the unit/monster that destroyed the transport.

Add that to the long and ever growing list of rule changes that will harm Space Marines (Assault Terminators that got peeled from a Landraider) less than other passengers who normally might have liked to shoot at least once before being in CC.

[Macragge]

Re Light Vehicles. Not better, not worse. Just different.
- Hull Points make them easier to kill. However it makes gun transports harder to supress - you need to kill the transport to supress it now.

Really?

I thought you could still Shake,Stun,Immobilise, & Destroy weaponry on penetrating hits AND remove hull points with it now? So it will still happen.

I think a lot of people are talking about glancing hits like penetrating hits happen once in a blue moon. Most things S7 and up still have a half decent chance of causing a penetrating hit on most lightly armoured vehicles, with the bonus then of -1 HP + an instant damage roll.

[Polaria]

This is incorrect. You can take allies below 2k pts. Actually the only options you have in less then 2k pts is a normal FOC, an optional Fortifiication and an Allied FOC.

Okay, if this is true I have been misinformed. However, I still think that in "balanced level games" (1500 to 1850 points) the requirement to buy an Allied HQ and Troop before you can get access to their other tools sets a pretty high premium on their price unless you actually happen to need the Allied HQ and the Troop themselves. Thus, getting a cheap Inquisitor and some Grey Knight Terminators to get 2+/5++ Troops to hold your objective might be a competitive choice for some armies, but most "abusive combos" simply end up being worse than you would have been without getting any Allies.

Re Flyers
- It's going to depend on the FAQs. As it looks at the moment, units of marine devs/long fangs with skyfire missiles are looking like a pretty strong arguement against flyers.

Is this based on fact from actual rulebook or is devastators and long fangs getting Skyfire just wild guesswork? I mean, it WOULD certainly affect the viability of Fliers but it would also reinforce my third point about Infantry getting a lot better...

Another nerf for Transports: When a vehicle gets destroyed in close combat, the passengers are automatically in close combat with the unit/monster that destroyed the transport.

Add that to the long and ever growing list of rule changes that will harm Space Marines (Assault Terminators that got peeled from a Landraider) less than other passengers who normally might have liked to shoot at least once before being in CC.

Really?

I thought you could still Shake,Stun,Immobilise, & Destroy weaponry on penetrating hits AND remove hull points with it now? So it will still happen.

I think a lot of people are talking about glancing hits like penetrating hits happen once in a blue moon. Most things S7 and up still have a half decent chance of causing a penetrating hit on most lightly armoured vehicles, with the bonus then of -1 HP + an instant damage roll.

These are all pretty good points against Mechanized MSUs. The five-men troops simply don't have the wounds to last when stripped out of their metal box, especially if they get assaulted. Plus keeping yourself restricted to 5-men squads doesn't even give you so much access to additional special weapons in recent codices. Space Wolves, Blood Angel Assault Squads and Grey Knights of all kinds get the exact same number of special weapons whether they are a two five-men squads or one ten-man squad. Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors are, I think, the only modern codex troop which actually get more special weapons in two five-men squads.

[Bartali]

Really?

I thought you could still Shake,Stun,Immobilise, & Destroy weaponry on penetrating hits AND remove hull points with it now? So it will still happen.

I think a lot of people are talking about glancing hits like penetrating hits happen once in a blue moon. Most things S7 and up still have a half decent chance of causing a penetrating hit on most lightly armoured vehicles, with the bonus then of -1 HP + an instant damage roll.

Can't suppress with glancing hits without killing It, hence harder to suppress.

[Pyriel]

Polaria, the idea of abusive allies builds is NOT to use the actual units of the allies it is:
-pick a powerful armylist
-pick now a SPECIAL CHARACTER from an allied book that combos well with your force.
-oh, you need a troops unit too? OK, get some lame 5-man squad as an excuse. presto.

example:
-Blood Angels assault-oriented force
-the Stormlord, to use perma-nightfighting so that blood angels can avoid shooting!
-oh, and 5 random necron warriors.

the allies rules basicaly allow you to add to your force ANY special character of other books, as long as you pay a "tax" of buying one supercheap troops choice from the special character's book.

[Polaria]

Polaria, the idea of abusive allies builds is NOT to use the actual units of the allies it is:
-pick a powerful armylist
-pick now a SPECIAL CHARACTER from an allied book that combos well with your force.
-oh, you need a troops unit too? OK, get some lame 5-man squad as an excuse. presto.

example:
-Blood Angels assault-oriented force
-the Stormlord, to use perma-nightfighting so that blood angels can avoid shooting!
-oh, and 5 random necron warriors.

the allies rules basicaly allow you to add to your force ANY special character of other books, as long as you pay a "tax" of buying one supercheap troops choice from the special character's book.

Okay. Granted that the MIGHT be a few combos available, but only if you can use all Special Characters and their powers without limitations. For example in the case of your Blood Angels + Stormlord I don't think that will be a broken combo... why not?

Well... What prevents me from taking pure Necron army with Stormlord and full Wraith Wing in it? Nothing. I get a kickass close-combat force with Nightfighting and unlike with Blood Angels I don't have to roll the "Desperate Allies" tests for each of my units each round, fearing for the dreaded roll of "1" which will stop the unit from doing anything that turn. Oh, and I got it 90 points cheaper, too.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I think MSU is stronger in 6th, not weaker. There were real benefits to large units in 5th edition which are gone now. KP's, protecting special models, no retreat wounds, and more. The only thing they've got going for them in 6th is that the whole unit can fire at a charging unit, but there's also the fact that multi-charges lose attacks, so I don't think it'll count for much overall.

I think "Skyfire" is going to be more common than this "flyers rule" notion accounts for. Your standard missile launcher comes with skyfire "flakk" missiles now, for example. Meanwhile, flyers zooming cannot start on the table and cannot hang around but are always on the move, making it more difficult to sustain fire with them.

Oh, and razorbacks? Still too cheap for what they are. Don't expect them to go away entirely, even if the models inside get out more.

[Macragge]

Can't suppress with glancing hits without killing It, hence harder to suppress.

It is harder, since you cannot suppress the vehicle with a glance now. But you can with a penetrating hit.

Your original point said you can't suppress a transport, you need to kill it to do so, it was this point which I was correcting, since you didn't specifically mention glancing hits.

[Sami]

MSU will only die when large units can split fire. Until then, saturating your opponent with lots of small targets when each unit can only shoot at once is a surefire way of keeping enough dangerous things alive to win you the game. While *how* people MSU their stuff (i.e. the options they take) may well change, MSU as a concept will still be king in 6th. Even for assaulting you have to consider:

1) Do I let me 10 man assault squad get hit by Overwatch fire with the potential of losing the entire unit if my opponent rolls really well (or has a power which buffs them to normal BS)? or:
2) Split them into 5-man squads. First 5 men charge and get hit with Overwatch. Next 5 charge and do not.

[Kloud13]

Anybody notice that you now randomly choose which weapon is destoyed on the vehicle damage table?

[Polaria]

I think "Skyfire" is going to be more common than this "flyers rule" notion accounts for. Your standard missile launcher comes with skyfire "flakk" missiles now, for example. Meanwhile, flyers zooming cannot start on the table and cannot hang around but are always on the move, making it more difficult to sustain fire with them.

Yes, that would change things. As I don't have the rulebook yet are these based on the actual rulebook, rumours or guessing?

[Jericho]

Anybody notice that you now randomly choose which weapon is destoyed on the vehicle damage table?

So... how many points for a pintle mounted stormbolter on a Vindicator again?