Welcome to 6th edition: Say Goodbye to MSUs and Metal Boxes

[Vaktathi]

Very wishful thinking to think that MSU is gone, MSU will definitely still be around as it still provides the best firepower per points ratio and this will always be true until/unless the do something about it at the codex level. GW appeared to try that with the 2007/2008 books and then discarded it. Also, as noted already, one will also notice that modern military units act just as MSU does, over the last century going from the Company at 80-150 men being the smallest "tactical" element of maneuver, to fire teams of 4-6 soldiers comprising squads of 8-12 in platoons of 30-60, typically with attendant transport, either an armored wheeled vehicle for each fire team or an Infantry Fighting Vehicle for a squad.

Some transport spam may change, but many armies are built very heavily around it, such as Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, and they can't do much about it, and many transports are still rather useful as cheap firebases.


that said, the biggest winners of 6E so far, at least to my eyes, are going to be Necrons, 4HP Av13 non-flyer tranports, AV11 flyer transports that don't actually hurt anything if they get shot down, incredibly ability to terminate vehicles with ease, etc.

[Polaria]

That said, the biggest winners of 6E so far, at least to my eyes, are going to be Necrons, 4HP Av13 non-flyer tranports, AV11 flyer transports that don't actually hurt anything if they get shot down, incredibly ability to terminate vehicles with ease, etc.

Necrons will certainly be winners. So far I've seen nothing that would be a nerf to them. But then again, they've never been a typical MEQ-Mech-MSU army like SW, BA and GK are. I think all three of those will have to radically change their lists.

[Macragge]

After the dire times when Necron players were forced to use a chronically outdated codex in 5th edition, and even with luck on their side struggled to compete hardly anywhere, I think they deserve some good fortune!

[logan054]

what will break 6th edition, though, is allies. i already imagine a Blood Angels assault force with allied Captain Shrike to grant them all Fleet...

Actually shrike wont be giving blood angels anything, blood angels do not have the combat tactics special rule, he only exchanges that rule for fleet.

I wonder if they will change the Chaos contempetor rules, at the moment its ignoring glamcing hits on a 4+ and as such ignoring losing hull points on a 4+, rather nasty.

[Vaktathi]

Necrons will certainly be winners. So far I've seen nothing that would be a nerf to them.

Yeah, they pretty much get boosted by almost everything in 6E. I'd expect to see them at the top, at least for the first couple years of 6E.

But then again, they've never been a typical MEQ-Mech-MSU army like SW, BA and GK are. I think all three of those will have to radically change their lists.

Likely, the biggest thing there is the "can't assault out of even stationary transports". That's a huge kick for any MEQ army, as quite often they only need Rhino's for one or two rounds to get across the board and then don't care if they get killed or not, HP's are more an issue for other armies. Razorbacks will take a hit since those generally want to hang around, so that will likely change to some degree.

[Clarkson]

Also note that casualties taken from the front, the potential for short edge deployment, reduced cover saves, and overwatch are all especially harsh on melee focused light infantry like orks and tyranids, while mech melee suffer from the inability to deploy from a vehicle moving more than 6".

even LR's get that debuff? so i cant move my LR 12" and assault my bezerkers out? if thats the case i spent £40 on a LR that will just sit in my garage gathering dust

[Fjoergyn]

Just for all the SC-ally-thing. If the one that told me is correct, you can't take SC as allies unless you have that army listed as Brother in Arms.
So in the end are:
Black Templars: SC from BA, DA, IG, SM, SW.
Blood Angels: The same as BT and BT.
Chaos with Daemons.
DA: Same as BT but they can't take from SW.
Dark Eldar from Eldar, Eldar from Dark Eldar and Tau.
GK, Necrons and Orks: No SC for you.
IG: Same as standard marine plus SoB.
SM: Same as BT plus Tau.
SW: Same as BT but not from DA.
Tau: Eldar and SM

Sure you can make some nice combos, but it is a bit restricted.

[ArmyC]

I was under the impression that you cannot take named characters in allied forces. Also, special rules and psychic abilities only benefit battle brothers.

I heard that troops have to exit the vehicle to hold objectives, but not being able to assault out of a stationary vehicle?

That is a shocking change if true. I was looking for 6th to do something for my Banshees. Well it did. Nerfing their power swords and forcing them to absorb fire for a turn before they can assault? They will never see the table, until a possible codex update.

[Clarkson]

I was under the impression that you cannot take named characters in allied forces. Also, special rules and psychic abilities only benefit battle brothers.

I heard that troops have to exit the vehicle to hold objectives, but not being able to assault out of a stationary vehicle?

That is a shocking change if true. I was looking for 6th to do something for my Banshees. Well it did. Nerfing their power swords and forcing them to absorb fire for a turn before they can assault? They will never see the table, until a possible codex update.

until 12pm tonight i dont trust any of the rumours... some are 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% correct but the sc and allies have been "confirmed" by boths ides of the argument by 2 different people with "copies" of the rulebook

if you cant take sc's, so what? we will just get on with it

[zendral]

Can't say I like the grenade thing in CC......all marines with krak getting a single Strength 6 attack against monstrous creatures. Or what if they all had melta bombs? All strength 8?...ouch. Anybody notice that needing a 6 to slap a grenade on a walker is gone? Just use weapon skill.....

The other thing I noticed is that a monolith (heavy and a smimmer) can still get a jink save of 5+ if it moved. Huh.....that's some fancy jinking.

[Vaktathi]

until 12pm tonight i dont trust any of the rumours... some are 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% correct but the sc and allies have been "confirmed" by boths ides of the argument by 2 different people with "copies" of the rulebook

Be aware that the book is already available in many stores, my store got their copies in yesterday about 1pm PST, almost wasn't able to get a game for our league because people were too busy looking over the new rules instead of playing. I'm stuck waiting for my gamers edition since those didn't ship out until later But the book is out on shelves now so waiting until 12pm tonight may be overdoing it a bit.

[Stonerhino]

The other thing I noticed is that a monolith (heavy and a smimmer) can still get a jink save of 5+ if it moved. Huh.....that's some fancy jinking.

You would hope that after so many lifetimes of dodging Eldar like shooting you would become quite the pilot, huh.

Kidding aside I think the Jink is only for fast skimmers.

[zendral]

Kidding aside I think the Jink is only for fast skimmers.

Haha, I know right?

As logic would dictate...you would think that correct. But having the book in front of me and having read the vehicle rules over and over...even looking at what being a "heavy" vehicle does...the rules say just simply being a skimmer grants you a jink save. And jink states that if your move at all you get a 5+ cover.

[Polaria]

Can't say I like the grenade thing in CC......all marines with krak getting a single Strength 6 attack against monstrous creatures. Or what if they all had melta bombs? All strength 8?...ouch. Anybody notice that needing a 6 to slap a grenade on a walker is gone? Just use weapon skill.....

Can all models in the squad use grenades in CC or is it just one grenade/squad?

Also, can you list the restrictions using Allies have since that seems to be one of the biggest unclear things at the moment?

[Stonerhino]

It doesn't at least say "moving beyond combat speed" or any such limiter???

That's kind of "Out there".

[zendral]

The only thing I see is that "heavy" states that for the purposes of shooting, a heavy vehicle always counts as stationary. One of my biggest skills in this hobby is finding all the odds and ends in the rules. I looked everwhere....I can say with 99 percent certainty that a monolith can get a 5+ cover save simply by moving .1"-6".

[zendral]

Can all models in the squad use grenades in CC or is it just one grenade/squad?

Every model that has a grenade can only ever make one attack with it in CC. So a tac squad of 10 marines can hit with one attack each at strength 6 against monstrous creatures and vehicles only. Grenades only work against those 2.

Also, can you list the restrictions using Allies have since that seems to be one of the biggest unclear things at the moment?

One grenade per model can be used in CC against monstrous creatures and vehicles only. So 10 tac marines will hit with 10 strength 6 attacks against a bloodthirster.

Battle brothers: Independant characters can join all units.
Units are counted as friendly for the targeting of physich powers, abilities, etc.
You still can't jump in each others transports.

Allies of Convenience:Allies are treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, target with psy powers, or have templates and blast markers put on them
Cant share warlord trait
Independant char cant join units.
Are not counted as friendly for psy powers and abilities.

Desperate allies: use the rules for allies of convenience, in addition....allied units stop being scoring and denial units. If your within 6" of each other you roll and if you get a 1 you cant do anything that turn.

[Polaria]

Battle brothers: Independant characters can join all units.
Units are counted as friendly for the targeting of physich powers, abilities, etc.
You still can't jump in each others transports.

Allies of Convenience: Allies are treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, target with psy powers, or have templates and blast markers put on them
Cant share warlord trait
Independant char cant join units.
Are not counted as friendly for psy powers and abilities.

Desperate allies: use the rules for allies of convenience, in addition....allied units stop being scoring and denial units. If your within 6" of each other you roll and if you get a 1 you cant do anything that turn.

Now this clears a LOT. Thank you very much. No restrictions on taking Special Characters, though?

[zendral]

No restrictions on taking Special Characters, though?

None that I see.

I hope not, I want to try running fateweaver with my sons and terminators. Re-roll 2+/3+/4+? yes please.

[Kloud13]

Vehicles equiped with "Get's Hot" weapons, now have to worry about rolling a 1. If they roll a 1, they then have to make a 4+ save or sufer glancing hit.

Bad news for IG Executioner. My Dread with Plasma Cannon? Don't know yet, he might switch back to assault Cannon if he sees tabletop even.