Do you always take a Lv. 4?

[Lorcryst]

I voted "often", but it really depends on the army and the point level ...

With my Night Goblins, always a lvl 4 and two lvl 2, but seeing the point costs, it's criminal not to ... and I also fit a Warboss, BSB and at least 4 Heroes in there ...

With my WoC, I tried a lvl 4 of tzeentch + lvl 2 of Death, but I also often go the Chaos Lord + lvl 2 route ...

With my DoC, NONE in my Khorne army, lvl 1 GUO and lvl 2 Herald in my 2K Nurgle army, but lvl 4 GUO and lvl 2 Herald as soon as we hit 2K5 ... but I play mono-gods armies ... in my Tzeentch army, I usually have a HUGE unit of Horrors, so a lvl 4 right there, plus lvl 2 Herald, and the lord is either lvl 2 or lvl 4 depending on point level ... tried a Slaanesh army too, but I didn't like it.

Since I only have 1000 points of Empire, I tend to use a lvl 2 and a Warrior Priest, but I still need to buy the new army book ...

I also have a High Elf army in the works, but with them I'm not sure ... again, depends on the point level.

[TheDungen]

Still haven't played any game in 8th, in my old 6th i almost never took a level 4 but neither did anyone else. I don't plan on fielding moire than defensive magic in 8th either doesn't fit the theme of may army. I dont mind losing anyway.

[Soundwave]

Mmmm very dependent on armies in question, some have access to cheap lvl 4(o&g,Empire) others are almost completely required to field one(tomb kings,v.c). Also another aspect is the counter threat requirement, i find lvl4 wizards are employed almost strictly for dispel purposes half the time. I will always opt for my lord to be a fighter class character in my smaller battles as the extra leadership i often need way to much, as when i field a wizard lord in the smaller forces i will fail ,no questions asked.

[Slug]

I'd include one in tournament lists, but in 'fun' games I often try less competitive lists and lower level mages.

Slug

[Havock]

Always, because I play WoC and without the magic phase it all becomes boring as ****.

[Commodus Leitdorf]

Never take one for me! I'd much rather use the points to buy more guns/bodies on the table.

[Not-not-kenny]

I almost always take one if I know I'll be facing magic, but for example in my latest game against dwarfs my only magic was an Arch Lector and everything went fine.

[Graeme]

Always for me as well. I play Lizards and while I wish I could use an Oldblood on a mutha-lovin' T-Rex, the Slann always gets the nod. If it were just a matter of the Slann being more useful, I might leave the hypno-toad on the bench every now and again, but the sad fact is that the Carnosaur general is just too fragile to even bother with.

[Leogun_91]

I take one most of the time but it constantly disappoints me (in this armybook, in the last it was a gamewinner).
There are three reasons why I take it.
The first is that I have used a great orc shaman for quite some time before this edition and don't really feel like changing.
The second is that I have a Great shaman on wyvern which I wish to use occasionally.
The thrird is that it's easy enough to fit two orc lords in a 2000pts army for orcs and goblins.
For my warriors of chaos I don't plan on using any lord level wizard, chaos lords are too cool and expensive for that.

[Sotek]

I don't with my Khorne WoC for fluff reasons and to protest the stupidity of magic in 8th edition

[gogs78]

Have to.

opponents will always bring a level 4.

There is too much of a difference thanks to the bonus to cast & dispel

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

Although playing high elves i can still get the same bonus to dispel with a level 2 which helps mix it up.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I always take one at >2k. There's nothing else Empire could buy for so little that has the same effect.

Well, for magic defence you can probably get away with a lower-level wizard if you set your sights on dispelling one or two choice spells per turn and tacitly allow the less dangerous spells through.

I bet that's what most people already do even with an L4, seeing how the defender already gets the short end.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Have to.

opponents will always bring a level 4.

There is too much of a difference thanks to the bonus to cast & dispel

It depends though if you're playing an army that really NEEDS one.

Skaven most certainly do NOT need one, a level 3 will get you by.

A Nurgle WoC army doesn't need one, 3 level 1's with Buboes will serve you better.

HE don't, with the Annulian Crystal around.

Even Beastmen don't with the Herdstone.

It all depends on what is in the list whether or not you really NEED a level 4.

[Glen_Savet]

I play lizards, and relatively rarely take a slann. Much of this is that I don't have one painted, but even so, I still win about half my games. Old Bloods are VERY choppy, and a couple of skinks chiefs on terradons usually do pretty well at assassination runs on most level 4 wizards I play around here.

[Doommasters]

If it is a competitive game I will almost always take a lvl4 simply becuase they provide a greater benefit than combat lords can 90% of the time. lvl4's provide magic defense, the best possible magic offence outside item boosts and can operate from range every turn of the game until they blow up or are killed. Not to mention magic in almost every game has an significant impact on the outcome of the game, a number of spells can tunr the game whether they by through hex buffing and simply destroying units. Now you can roll low on the Winds of magic or simply fail to do anything but this won't be the case every turn of the game in my experience. Magic might not win the game on its own but it is a very very powerful support phase that has many tactical options.

Combat lords on the other hand have greater leadership (can be gained for a lvl4 through +1ld banner) and are harder to kill. What you effectively get is 3-4 kills a turn unless you a vampire and it might be 7-8 instead, a chracter that can endure a reasonable amount of punishment......and may be a good way of denying points. The issue is that your combat lord unless sitting on a dragon is going to only see a few turns of combat and they can't operate from range, they can be re-driected, tarpitted and if on a monster sniped with warmachines. You don't get magic offence, if you add +4 to every dispell and cast attempt over the course of the game and work out how many additional dice that is you will be surprised.

Lets say your caster survives 5 turns of the game and you on average attempt to cast 3 spells a turn and attempt to dispell 2. That is >15 powerdice and >10 dispell dice over the course of the game with a lvl 4 caster.

Lets say PD and DD are worth 10pts each (no idea what the actual value is); thats 250pts worth of additional dice with +4 to cast.

Now the above is in a vacum along with a number of assumptions and should be be used a the sole reason to have a lvl4. Does not factor in opponents casters, having a lvl2, winds of magic, items, cost of the character etc etc etc etc


But to me in almost any game a combat lord unless on dragon is simply not going to compare to the ROI of a lvl4 caster unless the dice gods love you. It is difficult to add up all the beneifts each option gives you but it just seems obvious that you get more bang for your buck with a lvl4 than you ever will with a combat lord unless you can mkae lvl2's a reliable caster. You should get more magic if you invest in magic charcters and items but if you were to convert those points to combat charatcers and items I an 99.999% sure on average you will see a significantly lower ROI for those points.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well put, Dommasters, and pretty much my thoughts.

Just a minor aspect: The configuration of an L4 + SoD for added Ld isn't so great for everyone. Many armies do not want their wizard in combat, and a bunker that can take the SoD but has to stay out of combat might not always be such a good idea. Or it can cost as much as a simple Ld-boosting General and therefore defeat the purpose.

[Metacarpi]

I voted always - but it's more to do with the fact that I love my Screaming Bell as a centrepiece model as much as anything, and I can't field that without a Grey Seer! Having said that though, I'm in the middle of building a Plague Furnace, so I might end up going with Level 2's for a few games. Or I might just field both the Screaming Bell and the Plague Furnace!

[Lemonbrick]

currently I am always taking a level 4 gobolin shaman, with myO&G their cheapness makes it an easy choice.

With Beastmen I was including 2 level 4 but I am moving away from this as 1 bad magic roll and your really wasting points better spent on more creatures.

[Dnimuloc]

Not always. I often just stick with a Level 3. I think it's worth the risk, unless I'm depending way too much on a single spell coming out, in which case I'm playing it wrong and my list isn't all that balanced. In 8th edition, relying too much on something is a huge mistake.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Not always. I often just stick with a Level 3. I think it's worth the risk, unless I'm depending way too much on a single spell coming out, in which case I'm playing it wrong and my list isn't all that balanced. In 8th edition, relying too much on something is a huge mistake.

Is 35 points that worthwhile?

For 35 points, you get:
- An extra spell
- Much increased chance of getting the spells you want
- +1 to cast
- +1 to dispel

If it were a magic item it'd be a steal. +1 to cast and dispel alone is a 70 point item!