Tyranid Tactica 6th Edition

[itcamefromthedeep]

Or a bone shield ;-)

The bone shield on one of my Tyrants is an Armored Shell. A sword & shield Tyrant looks awesome.

What makes gargoyles better now than before?

[...]

I think those T3 troops are hard to use this edition more than ever before. If horms had that 3" assualt range in CC like they used to you could consider large units backed with psychic powers, as it is I don't really see it.

They get to Pile In 3" at their Initiative step, which means that you'll end up with a lot more than the old 3" engagement range.

Gaunt-class models like toxin/gland Gargoyles are relatively good at fighting Wraiths & a Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs, which is the premiere close combat unit of the army to beat at the moment.

Toxin Hormagaunts also look good for that kind of duty in the context of Enfeeble or the Swarmlord's Furious Charge.

Area terrain gives +1 cover on the bottom floor so if you can find a 4+ ruin, your stealth will give you 2+

I can't seem to find that rule. Would you mind helping me out here?

[Angelwing]

I can't seem to find that rule. Would you mind helping me out here?

i can't find it either. There might be some confusion with units going to ground in area terrain gaining +2 to cover save rather than +1.

[Balerion]

They get to Pile In 3" at their Initiative step, which means that you'll end up with a lot more than the old 3" engagement range.

Gaunt-class models like toxin/gland Gargoyles are relatively good at fighting Wraiths & a Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs, which is the premiere close combat unit of the army to beat at the moment.

I also love that they can trash most vehicles in the game relatively easily now. I remember discussions all the way back to the 4th edition tactica revolving around giving horde units the ability to swarm over and damage armour, and they can finally do it. I've been handing out Adrenal Glands like candy.

Gargoyles are awesome, I don't get you Vsurma. They're cheap, fast, provide cover to everything else in the list, shoot and fight reasonably well, and threaten both infantry and vehicles. They also score in 1/6 missions now.

[Vsurma]

i can't find it either. There might be some confusion with units going to ground in area terrain gaining +2 to cover save rather than +1.

Yea that's the one, a lot less useful granted.

[Vsurma]

I didn't say they are bad, they were good last edition but I feel they have a harder time now with the inclusion of overwatch and the changes to rapid fire weapons, even heavy weapons on the move. Against a typical bolter opponent you are going to take 2-3 bolter shots, then an overwatch and if the opponent likes cover they get to strike first often with 2 attacks due to additional CC weapon.

Rhinos are still 30 pts in a lot of armies and even if you destroy them they become cover which tyranid little bugs really hate.

Also people can bring their own cover now for 50pts so there seems to be a lot going against our t3 no assualt grenades troops. I suppose you could run a unit of 30 with FNP but it seems like we are relying on FNP for every unit these days...

I forgot furious charge no longer gives +1I so even if the enemy doesn't use fnp, that unit of 10 spacewolves or chaos space marines is still attacking at the same time even out of cover...ouch.

[bugsfromessex]

Winged dev tryant or winged cc tryant with 2set of scything talons what's the better option now?

[Transgressor]

I didn't say they are bad, they were good last edition but I feel they have a harder time now with the inclusion of overwatch and the changes to rapid fire weapons, even heavy weapons on the move. Against a typical bolter opponent you are going to take 2-3 bolter shots, then an overwatch and if the opponent likes cover they get to strike first often with 2 attacks due to additional CC weapon.

Rhinos are still 30 pts in a lot of armies and even if you destroy them they become cover which tyranid little bugs really hate.

Also people can bring their own cover now for 50pts so there seems to be a lot going against our t3 no assualt grenades troops. I suppose you could run a unit of 30 with FNP but it seems like we are relying on FNP for every unit these days...

I forgot furious charge no longer gives +1I so even if the enemy doesn't use fnp, that unit of 10 spacewolves or chaos space marines is still attacking at the same time even out of cover...ouch.

I think this is where the idea of the gribbly horde backed up by mass psykers is really good. Overwatch isn't a big threat to little guys, lose 2-3 maybe, not a big deal, it's the striking last with a 6+ save that really hurts. But if you cast enfeeble on the enemy once or twice before charging? Now those space marines are wounding you on a 5+ and you're wounding them back on 2+ (with reroll if you have poison). That is a HUGE swing in our favor and why every list I make now has 6 Zoes floating around.

[Frankly]

I didn't say they are bad, they were good last edition but I feel they have a harder time now with the inclusion of overwatch and the changes to rapid fire weapons, even heavy weapons on the move. Against a typical bolter opponent you are going to take 2-3 bolter shots, then an overwatch and if the opponent likes cover they get to strike first often with 2 attacks due to additional CC weapon.

Rhinos are still 30 pts in a lot of armies and even if you destroy them they become cover which tyranid little bugs really hate.

Also people can bring their own cover now for 50pts so there seems to be a lot going against our t3 no assualt grenades troops. I suppose you could run a unit of 30 with FNP but it seems like we are relying on FNP for every unit these days...

I forgot furious charge no longer gives +1I so even if the enemy doesn't use fnp, that unit of 10 spacewolves or chaos space marines is still attacking at the same time even out of cover...ouch.

Its going to be a numbers game(... and so like some other armies a $$$ cash game). How many gaunt body bags are filled before the unit is depleted enough before it becomes non-effective in the game. Alot of the down falls of running gaunts/gargoyles are made up by their points cost and the numbers they can drop down onto the table top.

You know that alot of your guants/gargoyles are going to die to rapid, mobile heavies, overwatch, assaulting into cover, etc,etc and so the question should be; how many models is enough to keep the unit/armylist performing even after taking so much damage? Its going to be a hard question to answer without a reasonable amount of table top exp.

[El_Machinae]

What about using the gargoyles as hard-to-hit mass gun platforms?

[itcamefromthedeep]

Rhinos are still 30 pts in a lot of armies and even if you destroy them they become cover which tyranid little bugs really hate.

As far as I can tell they've never been that cheap for any army.

What about using the gargoyles as hard-to-hit mass gun platforms?

They're not hard to hit. Whatever rule you're thinking of, Gargoyles don't get it.

They also aren't gun platforms. That bolt pistol at BS3 isn't impressing anyone.

You know that alot of your guants/gargoyles are going to die to rapid, mobile heavies, overwatch, assaulting into cover, etc,etc and so the question should be; how many models is enough to keep the unit/armylist performing even after taking so much damage? Its going to be a hard question to answer without a reasonable amount of table top exp.

A brood of 30 Gargoyles will steamroll most MEQ units within a few rounds (usually one). It can lose about half the unit and still win, where losing half the unit can be hard when they can be given FNP.

[Frankly]

A brood of 30 Gargoyles will steamroll most MEQ units within a few rounds (usually one). It can lose about half the unit and still win, where losing half the unit can be hard when they can be given FNP.

For me atleast its all about trying to drop that mindset of '30 gargoyles' and trying to get into the mindset of getting 90 models in Fast attack and how effective real horde numbers will work coming out of the Nidz codex. Excactly the same with termigants, where last edition was mostly about screening and support, this edition there's a little more scope for massed unit building in armylists, so that thought of MSU's can give way to 100+ models in Troop selection.

Like you said adding to this FnP and then also other Tervigons buffs, maybe mobile 5+ cover saves, maybe OA. you could have a reasonable footslogging list. Interesting to see if 2k becomes the new 1.5k for 40k as well, this will affect just how much support we can throw at a Nidz horde.

[Vsurma]

Winged dev tryant or winged cc tryant with 2set of scything talons what's the better option now?

Devs*2 + old adversary (counts as talons)

I think this is where the idea of the gribbly horde backed up by mass psykers is really good. Overwatch isn't a big threat to little guys, lose 2-3 maybe, not a big deal, it's the striking last with a 6+ save that really hurts. But if you cast enfeeble on the enemy once or twice before charging? Now those space marines are wounding you on a 5+ and you're wounding them back on 2+ (with reroll if you have poison). That is a HUGE swing in our favor and why every list I make now has 6 Zoes floating around.

zoes are expensive to take with powers imo, I much prefer the warp blast and lance, though I still prefer hive guard over those.

Still powers aren't too hard to come by, tyrants come with 2 for free since the new powers are better than the old, same deal with broodlords if your using stealers.

Tervigons can have 2/3 BUT you generally want to be casting FNP anyway so I am not convinced you get any free power from them since they can only cast 1 a turn anyway.

Enfeeble is a great spell but I don't think we can count on too many of them in the army or would you really pay close to 200 pts just for that spell by taking them on ZOes? I think initially it might seem like a good idea but at their cost your army starts to feel rather small.

Tervigons are probably a better deal when it comes to getting powers as they spawn for half their cost in gaunts and score, granted with zoes you can get lucky and get 3 enfeebles if that is what your going for.

[Vsurma]

Previously the Init 5 at least meant that once you got into CC your losses where limited as long as your squad still had numbers (hence 30 is looking pretty good right now), not your at init 4 so will take losses in CC as well.

Best case scenario is essentially rapid fire bolters on you, then overwatch, then you strike at the same time so a lot of marines get 2 S4 attacks.

That is a LOT of damage to take on a t3 6+ model at 8pts a piece. I love the models and their damage output is good but the init4 hurts them along with the no assualt grenades, without FNP I don't think they have much chance.

What about using the gargoyles as hard-to-hit mass gun platforms?

How are they hard to hit? their guns have 12" range, if you shoot the enemy can rapid fire/assualt

As far as I can tell they've never been that cheap for any army.

Fine 35pts for a rhino.

It's worth remembering that only the swarmlord can cast more than 1 power a turn so while you might be able to get more than 1 power worth using on many a unit your still limited to casting just the one.

[Frankly]

Best case scenario is essentially rapid fire bolters on you, then overwatch, then you strike at the same time so a lot of marines get 2 S4 attacks.

That is a LOT of damage to take on a t3 6+ model at 8pts a piece. I love the models and their damage output is good but the init4 hurts them along with the no assualt grenades, without FNP I don't think they have much chance.

Thats not the best case scenario by any stretch. Its a general assumpation of whats going to happen in a generalized situation. And its totally fine to assume that this will happen(its actually a really good yardstick to measure the assumed damage output of a troop choice against one of our horde units for example). But a best case scenario is you're going to use your winged mobility to consentrate OA buffed str4 ranged attacks on a single target and deplete the threat of his return attacks.

The reason I'm going for both gargoyles and termigants is that gargoyles have mobility to concentrate support power. It does raise interesting questions about how many models/shots you'll be able to move into a 12" range from outside of the targets rapid fire bubble and other questions like that need to be tested out.

[Megad00mer]

One aspect of the Tyranids in 6th that I don't think I've seen mentioned anywhere concerns our lack of assault grendades. Yes, Tyranids still lack this vital piece of gear but now we have a way around it.

Pg 28 in the BRB

Charging Through Difficult Terrain
If all of the enemy units charged were already locked in cornbat
from a previous turn or had gone to ground, the Initiative
penalty for charging through difficult terrain does not apply,
as the enerny warriors are not set to receive the charge, and the
unit charging through cover fights at its normal Initiative.

Big broods of fodder (termagants, gargoyles, hormagaunts, even rippers) can now be used to charge an enemy in cover, hold them there (no retreat is gone now) and allow heavier hitters to charge in your next turn with no Init penalty. It's a very characterful, combined arms approach to eating your opponents.

[Corvus Corone]

One aspect of the Tyranids in 6th that I don't think I've seen mentioned anywhere concerns our lack of assault grendades. Yes, Tyranids still lack this vital piece of gear but now we have a way around it.

Pg 28 in the BRB

Charging Through Difficult Terrain
If all of the enemy units charged were already locked in cornbat
from a previous turn or had gone to ground, the Initiative
penalty for charging through difficult terrain does not apply,
as the enerny warriors are not set to receive the charge, and the
unit charging through cover fights at its normal Initiative.

Big broods of fodder (termagants, gargoyles, hormagaunts, even rippers) can now be used to charge an enemy in cover, hold them there (no retreat is gone now) and allow heavier hitters to charge in your next turn with no Init penalty. It's a very characterful, combined arms approach to eating your opponents.

This was in 5e too. It's harder than it sounds because it must be an assault from the previous turn, so whatever you want to tarpit with must survive two turns of combat before your other assaulters join the fray at normal I on the charge. Not impossible or even unlikely, just worth bearing in mind.

[Transgressor]

The idea is to pack in as many Psykers as possible so that you're very likely to get at least a few powers that will be very helpful. To give you an idea, my 2000 point list has a shell Tyrant, 3 Tervigons, and 2 groups of 3 Zoes. That's 10 powers per turn casting, with (potentially) 23 rolls on the powers charts. I know some people are hesitant to give up catalyst on the Tervigons, but you're very likely to get endurance (a much better version catalyst) several times over with a list like this, along with incredible tactical flexability.

As for Zoes, they're only 10 points more than a Hiveguard, and you always have the option of keeping warp lance, but the key thing is you get to make that decision after you see what you're up against. You can decide if they need to be anti-tank (default powers), anti-horde (telepathy), or just support your horde (biomancy).

As for the question of would I pay that much for enfeeble? Yes...hell yes. Enfeeble is probably better than endurance in most assault situations and an absolute godsend for dealing with character deathstars (or any multi wound units) and other MCs.

[Theocracity]

This was in 5e too. It's harder than it sounds because it must be an assault from the previous turn, so whatever you want to tarpit with must survive two turns of combat before your other assaulters join the fray at normal I on the charge. Not impossible or even unlikely, just worth bearing in mind.

It was hard in 5th because No Retreat! meant little gribblies would die faster and could spill over fearless wounds onto the other assaulting units, making it unreliable and dangerous. Now a fearless tarpit actually does its job, and an MC charging into the fray can do so at full effect.

[Nicho]

Had fun with enfeeble yesterday. Both my tyrant and tervigon got it so were stacking it on units, when vanguard vets are getting doubled out by fleshborers its quite funny

[Finn]

Had fun with enfeeble yesterday. Both my tyrant and tervigon got it so were stacking it on units, when vanguard vets are getting doubled out by fleshborers its quite funny

Nice counter to BA priests, if you roll the power .

The idea is to pack in as many Psykers as possible so that you're very likely to get at least a few powers that will be very helpful. To give you an idea, my 2000 point list has a shell Tyrant, 3 Tervigons, and 2 groups of 3 Zoes. That's 10 powers per turn casting, with (potentially) 23 rolls on the powers charts. I know some people are hesitant to give up catalyst on the Tervigons, but you're very likely to get endurance (a much better version catalyst) several times over with a list like this, along with incredible tactical flexability.

As for Zoes, they're only 10 points more than a Hiveguard, and you always have the option of keeping warp lance, but the key thing is you get to make that decision after you see what you're up against. You can decide if they need to be anti-tank (default powers), anti-horde (telepathy), or just support your horde (biomancy).

As for the question of would I pay that much for enfeeble? Yes...hell yes. Enfeeble is probably better than endurance in most assault situations and an absolute godsend for dealing with character deathstars (or any multi wound units) and other MCs.

Psychic Circus, yes! I would actually probably keep Catalyst on the Tervigons (and keep it their only power) simply to conserve points, while rolling on Biomancy with a Zoanthrope in each brood (keeping codex powers on the others if needed, otherwise Telepathy for Shriek if nothing else) for the shot at Endurance and Enfeeble, and Haemorrhage could be useful...maybe.