I have never had a game in which magic or warmachines were so dominant as to end a game on turn 3. I've had plenty of games where one or the other helped a lot and even was responsible for the victory but not to such an extent.
I have never had a game in which magic or warmachines were so dominant as to end a game on turn 3. I've had plenty of games where one or the other helped a lot and even was responsible for the victory but not to such an extent.
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I would have to assume that they are playing the scenarios but still see the game collapse with when the big units go bust. Maybe the OP can shed some light on this.Originally Posted by Urgat
In my mind, the game of warhammer is less about winning than it is to play the game. "Winning" is important in that it is where you want to go, but the "game" is about balancing risk/reward, marching your cunning against your opponent, and pulling off crazy stunts from time to time. Restarting after three turns is a fair option when there isn't any challenge to be had from the game. However, I would want to avoid games that end that way.
In so far as "sudden death" is a problem (which it is to the OP), moving away from building army lists where one puts all eggs in one basket is sure to diminish that problem.
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Try larger or combined battles.I am finding 3000 to be the new 2000 as the rules are geared to massive amounts of casualties with the heaven sent step up rule as well as shooting now in 2 ranks without your hill requirement. You can also try U.F.F (ultimate fighting fantasy) were one of you have to tap out or wipe the other out with no turn limit.This is great as it encourages a wider spread of units and plenty of room for a come back.
True. Higher points values for the battles, and larger battlefields, can stave off the impulse to quit early after a big bust. In many ways its a larger-scale version of forcing a regular-size battle to use smaller units.
Fighting an 8' wide battle is something quite different from a 6' wide battle. In the case of the former you'll likely have three or four fights going on, so even if you are losing on the left flank you may still be doing okay or even good at the center or to the right. And if you keep playing the game, maybe you can even salvage something in the fits you are losing. With a 6' battle things tend to very often revolve around the core big units with the general and BSB with little else going on. And when things go bust it's hard to see how you can salvage anything.
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Ha,ha if your just starting up again also everyone goes "horde crazy" well at least we did,then came the stars and character hammer units then came Final Transmutation and lots of pain as lords and bsbs in unit are turned to gold with someone singing "i got the midas touch" Terribly .This stopped all that pretty quick.
Well, I have "thrown the towel" more than once, because using a bit of maths and good sense showed to both me and my opponent that I could not hope even for a Draw ...
With Daemons, when your GUO, Herald and 3 out of 4 units of infantry are dead, leaving you with an unit of 10 Plaguebearers and 4 bases of Nurglings against an almost full 3K army of Dwarves with all their canons, 32 Thunderers, a horde of Longbeard Rangers and a horde of Hammerers, it's easy to see ...
I even lost a Blood and Glory game before my first turn, Bloodthirster was killed by a canon ball, did not have enough banners, break point reached ... but that was my fault, because a single horde of Bloodletters and 2 units of Flesh Hounds does not a good army make
But then, even when fighting to the last man, I've been totally wiped (as in, not a single model left on the table) by turn 4 ... and those were very one-sided and boring games (at least for me, but my 8 years old opponent had great fun ... nasty git with stellar luck, for him when he rolls the Artillery dice for his Organ Guns, it's the "die that does 10", never overshoots with a canon, always wounds, etc).
Oh, I feel the same, if I cared about winning I'd play another army, but neither me nor my opponents find it very fun to bully someone who's clearly done for.
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Here is a good reason not to give up.....my oldest battle brother (high elves) and me (dark elves) were playing a game 7th ed mind you and we normally have fiendishly fast and furious battles which we did.On this occasion turn 6 rolled round and there was not much left he had a bolt thrower and 3 sword masters (his com incl champ)i had 2 bolt throwers 20 spearmen and my lvl4 sorceress lord and an assassin within.Final charge went to myself and i did not think to reveal my assassin as to rub it in after how i did not need it.Now for the funny part i miss most of my attacks (yes with re-rolls)and wound once,he saves and the three lonely sword masters all hit wound and i die. lost by one and roll a nine (required 8) i then am caught and slaughtered,and he wins contesting extra table quater while my own is nullified.Also take into acount 7th ed swordmasters had one attack and no re-rolls.
The trend of games ending turns 3/4 does exist but only when you actually look at the army list do you begin to see why.
A HE player fights dwarfs he takes a horde of lion warriors and wonders why they are gone by turn 3??
A WOC player takes a death star horde of chosen, and wonders why they get shot to s*** by turn 3/4??
The list taken will define the game you play, yeah there a big uber spells, cannons that space marines
ask "why do i have to roll to hit??". Players placing all there eggs in one basket will result in an easy win or a turn 3/4 capitulation. Barring flukes i tend to find power lists the most susceptible to turn 3/4 losses.
Its important in campaign games to play to the end of the game, whenever that may be. You never know how those casualty rolls will affect the additional casualties caused.
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Absolutely. I've had 20 years of playing the game, so I feel like I should know when I'm beaten. But actually, I have thought that on numerous occasions, suggested throwing in the towel, been talked out of it, and managed to pull off a win.
So, in answer to the OP, I am sure 8th edition is indeed a 3 turn game... if you are in the habit of giving up by turn 4.
Oh, and also, what is the point of Warhammer? Is it to see which of you can win, or is it to have fun? I can still have fun even if the battle is lost, by trying to thwart my opponent as much as possible.
I never meant to imply that people shouldn't play the way they want. My point was that the first three turns of the game play differently than the last three in my experience. Magic and war machines tend to have a bigger impact those first three turns than the last three turns for me where infantry has little effect the first three turns in comparison to the last three turns. Playing to three or four turns makes it a different game where I concede that magic and war machines have a larger affect for the cost than infantry. If somebody is playing the majority of their games only to turn three or four then I can easily see why they would feel that magic and war machines dominate the entire game for the investment.
In some games yes... Not all. It really depends on the matchup. Some armies can be competitive with very little on the field, while others can't. My DE, for example have a lot of mass damage potential spread across the entire army.
On the other hand, if I lose my 2 combat blocks with my beastmen, early, they are pretty much done for thanks to virtually zero ranged shooting or magic damage potential.
It depends on your opponent too. ih he loads up on hellcannons, shrines and a huge warrior block, for example, a lucky first turn for him may see you lose 20 men from one block and get a unit or a monster gatewayed to oblivion too. You simply won't have anything to deal with that huge buffed unit and might as well wrap it up for the night in that case. Much the same with dwarves with upstrengthed grudge throwers. If they win the first turn and roll well, it is sometimes not worth even playing your turn.
But if you construct your army carefully you can take a lot of the early finishes out of your night of entertainment. I'd say I only really get early finishes against double warshrine chaos these days, and I only inflict them if I take a flyer with Death to purple sun enflinade my opponent (which i do very rarely).
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While it's certainly the case that a majority of games are decided around Turn 3-4 I'm a firm believer in playing things through to the very end.
Some of the best experiences I've had with Warhammer involved me only having 1 unit left, and trying to keep that unit from getting caught by a massively victorious opponant. It's not about 'winning' at that point, of course, but rather about emerging into what's taking place and laughing at the ridiculous stuff that are bound to happen once the game has become 'perfectly unbalanced'.
If I'm getting annihilated early in the game and my dice are complete failures, I sometimes call it. Sometimes, the frustration isn't fun for me or my opponent and I'd rather shake his/her hand and try another game. However, I try not to throw in the towel. If I'm getting beat, I want my opponent to be able to enjoy their victory and the empty field at the end of the game. I know I like seeing a game through, even when I've got no prayer. Unless the dice are pissing me off, in which case I tend to either just laugh at my fate or throw in the towel.
I've seen several games I could predict the winner on turn 3. I've even had a game that was over turn 2. I've also seen several games where my prediction was wrong.
Last game I played some bad luck on turn 3 made me expect a devastating loss, but unexpected good luck on turn for allowed me to turn it around.
So while I think it often looks like the winner is clear on turn 3, that is ususally not the case.
There this aspect of it too, of course. And ultimately I'd say there's fun ways of losing a game as well (as opposed to 'giving up') - although I do respect an opponant who does give up, especially if the time saved means you got time another game (which, admittedly, stands to be just as much fun as the first one).
I haven't experienced that - in fact, I found 7th much more decisive by turn 3. Now, certainly there are times like Urgat mentions where you would have to be like Magical Trevor to come out alive with your 5 wolf riders and 10 night goblins - that might be time to set up for the rematch.
A lot of people have said some really good advice, but the one I like best is:
Don't give up on turn three.
I would put an addendum in there:
At the end of the game, talk about why you lost. Refuse to accept the 'I had bad luck' argument as that is irrelevant and will never result in you improving your game.
In truth, I suspect that you'll start to see that a single huge unit is an all or nothing proposition. If it fails, you lose. This might inspire you to create different armies.
I agree with Memnos.
If you've lost in turn three you either have chosen a build that was a gamble and lost the bet, or you need to adjust your army. If it happens 1 out of 10 games, it may still be a good bet as long as your winning the other 9.
This is why I enjoy Lizardmen this edition. Usually in combat 2nd round and just about any unit of Saurus will hold a minimum of 2 rounds against almost anything. Then I toss in a couple of Stegs to do the breaking.
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