Dark Eldar Tactica - 6th Edition

[Krovin-Rezh]

It's a trade off Sym, because often a smaller squad in a transport won't make it into combat at all for about the same points. But I do not like sinking a bunch of points and abilities into any T3 squad, simply because of the number of S6 shots in the current meta that can ruin your day. Wracks can only do ten mpu, but they laugh at anything under S8 and you've got a Haemonculus already anyway. Camped in cover on an objective, they can be very hard for the opponent to deal with.

[d6juggernaut]

I've had plans to put together a Baron & Duke dynamic duo list for a while, and although it's not the strongest list out there I think it has some potential. So I finally got a list together, take a look

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ke-Dynamic-Duo

Any feedback is appreciated.

Another thing, how are we suppose to deal with nob bikers these days? Dark Lances don't reliable kill them anymore and they will wipe anything we have in combat, do we really have to just shoot poison shots at them and pray for them to fail saves now?

[Enigma6]

Poison is our best friend vs nob bikers now. They can't wound shenanigin as much as before, and T5 is meaningless to us, so it's just about forcing saves.

It will still take a lot of effort, but if you can keep away from combat then a concentrated volley or three should get rid of them.

The problem there is of course that you are neglecting the rest of the hoard running at you...

[Symrivven]

It's a trade off Sym, because often a smaller squad in a transport won't make it into combat at all for about the same points. But I do not like sinking a bunch of points and abilities into any T3 squad, simply because of the number of S6 shots in the current meta that can ruin your day. Wracks can only do ten mpu, but they laugh at anything under S8 and you've got a Haemonculus already anyway. Camped in cover on an objective, they can be very hard for the opponent to deal with.

It is indeed a trade off, more bodies for less mobility an protection. Still I think claiming transported unit wont make it into combat often is a bit bleak. The enemy first has to destroy your transport. Which requires either dedicated anti tank weapons or a high volume of str 4+ shots. This in combination with night shields and the 5+ (4+) jink saves means it still requires some effort on the opponents part to down them. If destroyed in most cases (when it gets wrecked) the passengers wont suffer from it, only explodes results do damage and the wreck or even crater do grant cover.

If you don't want to spend a bunch of points on T3 squads you are going to have a bad time playing Dark Eldar, or do limit your self to a coven list? Personally I don't feel the weight of str6 so this is like a difference in our local meta game. I do wonder why you think T3 cant deal with S6 shots while claiming wracks laugh at anything below str 8. for example versus str 6 They both get wounded on 2+ so the only difference is that one gets a fnp save and the other doesn't this is only a difference of 1 in 3. In my opinion wracks aren't that durable and I wouldn't call it laughing at anything below str8 either, they need a 4+ cover save to come on equal footing with a bog standard marine in terms of durability.

Finally I wonder what they are going to do once they've set up camp on an objective, wait for the battle to end? They don't have any ranged weaponry to speak of so the opponent can quietly ignore them fighting with 100% of his army against 80% of yours. Sure it requires some effort to dislodge them but they aren't a tread until that point either. I don't always camp an objective, but when I do I bring some long rage weaponry. This way the unit can actively contribute to the battle even when babysitting an objective.

Don't see this as an I'm right and your wrong post, with these arguments questions I'm trying to understand why you have such a strong opinion against our transports (and aparantly to some degree against t3) even though these are in my opinion such a central part of our army.

[DeviantApostle]

On Horde Wyches: I don't feel Wyches are cheap enough for this apprach. Points-wise, you'll be out-numbered and outgunned by Orks, 'nids and IG and outperformed by Grey Knights and Space Wolves from a point effectiveness standpoint.

From a personal standpoint, I find Wyches really klunky as an assaulty scoring unit. They can't absorb the casualties like proper horde units so when they finally get to the objective, if they get there, shooting them off is surprisingly easy. When flashlights are wounding on 4+, you're in serious trouble, cover or no.

One thing I've been playing around with is Bloodbrides, strangely. But then I'm fielding them rather than Wyches in my old Wych Raider delivery system (Wych, Haemie w/Liquifier, Raider). The extra attacks with the delivery system works better for me and how I use the Wyches. I get a better Wych unit that can die without me ending up losing a scoring unit. The extra attack combined with Haywire grenades really can make a mess of vehicle squadrons or multiple tanks. I'm generally thinking about walkers here, of course, since I see the occasional BA Dread spam list thses days.

Another thing I'm finding. Now that I'm taking fliers in my HS slots, I'm trying out a few Dark Lances in my Warriors. With NS in a Raider, they get close to the Ravager in damage output while being able to score. Another S8 AP2 shot in overwatch also doesn't hurt (not that it's a good reason to buy the gun but it's a nice feature).

[Symrivven]

One thing I've been playing around with is Bloodbrides, strangely. But then I'm fielding them rather than Wyches in my old Wych Raider delivery system (Wych, Haemie w/Liquifier, Raider). The extra attacks with the delivery system works better for me and how I use the Wyches. I get a better Wych unit that can die without me ending up losing a scoring unit. The extra attack combined with Haywire grenades really can make a mess of vehicle squadrons or multiple tanks. I'm generally thinking about walkers here, of course, since I see the occasional BA Dread spam list thses days.

I'm fairly certain you can only make one grenade attack per model irrelevant of the number of attacks they have. Your reasoning about not loosing a scoring units is a bid twisted. Having a scoring unit with the potential of loosing it is better than not having a scoring. If the unit dies you have the same number of scoring units no matter if the unit was bloodbrides or wyches, but if the unit lives then if they were wyches you have one more scoring unit.

[Night429]

Page 61 of the rulebook. A model can only ever make 1 attack in melee with a grenade.

[barjed]

I had the most baffling game yesterday.

All my three transports (2x Raider and a Venom) got shot down turn one, my opponent moved first. There was no night fighting, unfortunately. Disembarking Warriors failed their Pinning test and had to go to ground.

I failed both of my Shadow Field saves on the first attempt - for both Duke and Archon.

I had three morale tests after taking some casualties and I failed all three.

My opponent rolled SIX hits on scatter dice, one after another. When he finally rolled something else, he had a reroll (Guide) and again rolled a hit.

I had two assault units and neither managed to even get to CC.

And here is the best part - I won. We had three objectives. Had six Reavers annoying the hell out of my Eldar friend (constant 3+ Jink and FNP) and by turn 6 he got so pissed that he moved his Wraithlord that was contesting the middle objective to shoot the single jetbike that was left. I trotted back to said objective with my three remaining Wyches and then, due to a lucky roll, the game ended.

I am now in the process of trying to come up with an assault list for my DE (yes, against all the odds). Bought myself 10 Helions, 10 Wracks, Harlies with SS. I am now getting some beasts. Now I only have to figure how to synergize them with all the nerfs assault got in 6th.

I won 7:2 with scraps of my army and couldn't stop laughing for hours.

[Mushkilla]

That great! Your friend must have been raging.

I had a similar game against grey knights, not quite as bad, but I did loose all my raiders in one turn. Grey knights are scary this edition with access to cheap inquisitors with divination. Prescience is brutal with psycannons and psybolts, they were already hard for DE to beat, and now they got even shootier. Not to mention, overwatch, divination and Hull points all make S5 bolters very good.

Here is my battle report if anyone is interested:

Battle Report 5

[danny-d-b]

That great! Your friend must have been raging.

I had a similar game against grey knights, not quite as bad, but I did loose all my raiders in one turn. Grey knights are scary this edition with access to cheap inquisitors with divination. Prescience is brutal with psycannons and psybolts, they were already hard for DE to beat, and now they got even shootier. Not to mention, overwatch, divination and Hull points all make S5 bolters very good.

Here is my battle report if anyone is interested:

Battle Report 5

Great lists- have you ever thought about taking warriors instead of wyches (extra shooting) and droping the arena chapions (as you don't see much combat) for cluster calatropes?

[Arkaedin]

Decided to compare some units on the charge in close-combat. First I ran numbers for load-outs that seem the most common. Next I ran the numbers with NO upgrades whatsoever. Here are the graphs:

Upgraded Units
Un-upgraded Units

The loadouts were as follows:
Bloodbrides - (10) 3 Razorflails, Syren with Venom Blade and PGL
Wyches - (10) 2 Razorflails, Hekatrix with Venom Blade and PGL
Hellions - (10) Heliarch with PGL and Power Lance
Grotesques - (5) Abberation with Venom Blade
Mandrakes - (5)
Incubi - (5) Klaivex with Demiklaives

If you notice, there's some interesting stuff. A very important note though is that this doesn't take into account the survivability of the units. Mandrakes don't look too bad with the numbers given, but they die pretty quickly to most small-arms fire. Grots on the other-hand are FAR more survivable (and you are definitely paying for the wounds more than the attacks) so they are OVERALL better units than the Mandrake despite a worse Points/Kill ratio. If you want to take Wyches, Bloodbrides are a better choice if you choose to upgrade them and have some extra points... BUT they don't have any increased survivability so you need to take that into consideration. Without upgrades, Wyches are a better choice as you will only pay 1 extra point per kill for a squad that costs 30 points less. Obviously Incubi are the best at taking out MEQs, I don't think there was any counter-argument there.

I just thought these were some interesting stats so interpret them however you like, just remember it's only taking into consideration a unit on the charge and doesn't look into the survivability of each unit (and also makes a crucial assumption that every unit made it into combat without falling to Overwatch- something that certainly needs to be considered).

[Night429]

Decided to compare some units on the charge in close-combat. First I ran numbers for load-outs that seem the most common. Next I ran the numbers with NO upgrades whatsoever. Here are the graphs:

Any way to include Wracks in that graph?

[Mushkilla]

Great lists- have you ever thought about taking warriors instead of wyches (extra shooting) and droping the arena chapions (as you don't see much combat) for cluster calatropes?

I'm really just experimenting with stuff at the moment, seeing what works and what doesn't. I tested out caltrops in battle report 4 they are very effective (9 reavers with clatrops kill on average 5 marines) but expensive, if I was running warriors I would drop the champions and use clatrops. However at the moment I'm just trying to get wyches to work, once I a have figured that out I will give warriors a try.

[Arkaedin]

Any way to include Wracks in that graph?

I'm probably going to make a more comprehensive chart tomorrow for each unit on the charge (taking into account Overwatch and Initiative order) as well as shooting effectiveness. I just ran the Wrack numbers for you though:

10 man squad, Acothyst with Venom Blade:
MEQ - 2.81 kills, 40.99 pts/kill
GEQ - 5.61 kills, 20.49 pts/kill

UN-UPGRADED
MEQ - 2.5 kills, 40 pts/kill
GEQ - 5 kills, 20 pts/kill

Against MEQs they're the best choice after Incubi but with a 6+ save an I4 you're probably going to lose the fight. Again, I'll run everything tomorrow to see the average overwatch effect and all that so those numbers will probably end up being more useful.

[Da Black Gobbo]

Hi guys I'm making a list with 4 venoms with 2xwyches 1xblast kabalites, 1xblaster born, void raven, 2 ravagers, 2x9 clustercaltrops and arena leader reavers, 3 beastmasters with 10 kymerae and 2 razorwing flocks, I'm doubting about an extra troop choice and have this 2 options:

--Sucubus with HW grenades, Venom blade and agoniser
--7 HW wyches with Heka with Venom blade, riding a NS raider

OR

--Baron Sathonyx

--10 Hellions: Venom Blade Helliarch.

What do you think?? thanks!!

[adreal]

Would baron leading a unit of 9 Reavers with 3 blasters be any good. The way I understand it, they Move and get a 3+ cover (2+ with night fight). When charged can over watch pretty good (3 blasters, 1 splinter pod, 6 rapid fire splinter rifles). Baron can detach if I need to blade vane something annoying.

I dunno I thought of it last night and I'll try it soon in game

[Von Breitholz]

Or we take an aegis defense line with the Icarus or the quad cannon and a footslogging eldar warrior unit inside.
4 TL shots at AB 4 could be 4 hits, and an average of 1 pen or 1 glance. That's already better than the whole army firing at vendettas.

Exactly this is what we need and can lay our hands on without allies.

[barjed]

Would baron leading a unit of 9 Reavers with 3 blasters be any good. The way I understand it, they Move and get a 3+ cover (2+ with night fight). When charged can over watch pretty good (3 blasters, 1 splinter pod, 6 rapid fire splinter rifles). Baron can detach if I need to blade vane something annoying.

I dunno I thought of it last night and I'll try it soon in game

The problem with this setup is that you sacrifice extreme mobility of your bikes and their bladevane attacks.

As for the cover saves - Baron gives you Stealth. I am not sure if that stacks with night fighting Stealth but surely it does with Shrouded. Anyway, you can get 3+ for your bikes by Turbo Boosting which also lets you move up to 36" and bladevane. The latter, at least in my experience, is the absolute bane of squishy units and can consistently mow down models that do not sport crazy saves.

I think that it is generally better to stick Baron with a JI unit - so Helions or Scourges.

[adreal]

I would mainly be using them as a dakka wych unit with some ap2 shots, I usually use three dissie ravagers so blade vanes would be a maybe option, not why I have the Reavers, the 3+ cover for moving is really appealing to me

[Symrivven]

It is an interesting idea, but the problem with that setup is that you lose both the turboboost and the assault move (when not charging). Furthermore the splinter shots and the blaster shots ideally have a different target. Finally I wouldn't put to much stock in their overwatch potential, with only 0.27 ap2 wound and 1.16 ap 5 wounds.
It can work in friendly games but I wouldn't consider it competitive.