6th edition FAQ on UK GW page.

[yabbadabba]

BADAB? What is BADAB?

[jimbo1701]

Term someone coined for the new book on a forum - sorry can't remember who but credit where it's due.

'Big Ass Dark Angel Book'

[Sami]

Now adopting that as the name for 6th edition rulebook.

[Fraf]

Um why so they move 2d6" with their jump move instead of a stock 6" yes it's more variable but on average your moving 1" more than in 5th......

Yeah that 1 in 35 chance is a real killer..... I'm sorry but people taking issue with this and with the 2d6" charge are simply allowing the control freak in them to hyperbole it into being far worse than what it is.

Statistics and average are irrelevant when it takes only one bad roll to srew you up.
First, it's much more than 1 in 35 chances as snake eyes are not the only result that exposes us. When you're jumping out of and back behind cover, any roll less than your movement distance is bad, so that's almost a 1/3 chances of not going back where you were (let's say 1/4 to account for when you didn't use the full 6" in the movment phase). When you have an average of 4 jetpack units rolling over the course of a 5-6 turns game, this is guaranteed to happen.

"oh but you also get to roll high to compensate" / "but you gained 1" on average"
nope, because we still move a fixed 6" in the movment phase, so rolling high will often be wasted if you want to be able to jump in front of cover again during your next turn, and you won't use those extra inches above 6.

net result : that unreliability will screw us hard with low rolls and we get no benefit from high rolls

[Frgt/10]

I'm going to try one more time. Page 61 of the BRB addresses types of power weapons. It states that there are "four simple categories" power weapons: axes, mauls, swords, and lances. Then it goes on to say "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further spacial rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has." With Dante, you cannot meet this criteria, as his weapon has a further SPECIAL RULE. Special Rules begin on page page 32, and Master Crafted is one of them. You will also note that 6th edition doesn't use the term Universal Special Rules, they are just special. Which then obviously makes Dante's weapon not meet any of the four simple categories, so we must move on to the next paragraph.

Unfortunately, the paragraph for Unusual Power Weapons uses the term "unique rules". I would agree that it doesn't make much sense calling a Special Rule a unique rule, but that arguement is more semantic in nature than the first. Dante's weapon is still explicitly a power weapon with a further special rule, so you do not look at the model itself.

Hopefully, GW will update their FAQ to handle the freaking Chapter Master. Hopefully GW will approach this task with the objective to convey the original designer's intent, which was obviously to have Dante fighting at his full initiative.

Agreed. It is silly that this argument should even exist, but it does because the faq doesn't cover it, and the rule is ambiguous.

Term someone coined for the new book on a forum - sorry can't remember who but credit where it's due.

'Big Ass Dark Angel Book'

It was on this forum in the 6th ed thread

[Navar]

I'm going to try one more time. Page 61 of the BRB addresses types of power weapons. It states that there are "four simple categories" power weapons: axes, mauls, swords, and lances. Then it goes on to say "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further spacial rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has." With Dante, you cannot meet this criteria, as his weapon has a further SPECIAL RULE. Special Rules begin on page page 32, and Master Crafted is one of them. You will also note that 6th edition doesn't use the term Universal Special Rules, they are just special. Which then obviously makes Dante's weapon not meet any of the four simple categories, so we must move on to the next paragraph.

Unfortunately, the paragraph for Unusual Power Weapons uses the term "unique rules". I would agree that it doesn't make much sense calling a Special Rule a unique rule, but that arguement is more semantic in nature than the first. Dante's weapon is still explicitly a power weapon with a further special rule, so you do not look at the model itself.

Hopefully, GW will update their FAQ to handle the freaking Chapter Master. Hopefully GW will approach this task with the objective to convey the original designer's intent, which was obviously to have Dante fighting at his full initiative.

I don't see how you reach the bolded conclusion.

I would argue via semantics that just because a rule is a special rule it isn't necessarily "special."

There is ambiguity because there are 2 ways to read the sentence. I contend because later on the same page they seem to use the phrase "Unique Rules" in the same context with "Special Rules" that they don't actually means "Special Rules" the game term, but "Special" "Rules" where special means the same thing as "Unique" in this context. (And according to my handy dandy thesaurus Special and Unique are synonyms.)

Your reading makes grammatical sense, but doesn't make contextual sense. Or to put it another way, if you can read a block of text 2 ways and in one way it is self contradictory, but in another way it makes complete sense, then the latter reading must be correct.

Again by your argument it becomes impossible to give a non unique special character a master crafted power axe (or spear or maul.) because once you choose the option to master craft their power weapon they become "unusual."

Edit: Hi Frgt/10

[totgeboren]

This makes me wonder about Daemon Weapons. They have three rules, Two-handed, Power Weapon, and the daemon bit which depends on the mark of the wearer. They are hardly unique, and as the entry for a Lord with no Mark says, they may be in the form of a "wicked scimitar, great broadsword, or simply an axe or mace."
You can have as many Daemon Weapons as you have Lords, so it is definitely not a unique piece of gear as Dantes axes is, or the Axe Morkai or any of the other named, one-of-a-kind weapons many special characters have.

However, GW might have meant unique as in "is only available to one or very few units in the game", which would make for example a Dire Sword Ap 3 because of the name, not the shape, same with Bone Swords. They could be called 'Bone Axes', but they would still be Ap like a sword because they have a different name from simply "Power Weapon". I would hardly call Bone Swords unique, but they do have special rules in addition to being Power Swords.

I could have 8 Dire Swords in an Eldar army, all on generic non-special-models. Is a weapon like that unique or not? I would hardly call them unique, and the meaning of the word really is 'one of a kind'. I can only ever include one of Dantes axe in an army, so even though it's just a basic Power Weapon with the Master Crafted rule (making it not unique rule-wise, and clearly an Axe), it is unique setting-wise, meaning it could look like anything, and unless GW states otherwise, it has Ap3.

I simply don't how what GW mean by unique. I think they mean that the specific rules for the weapon should only be found in a single codex, and not in the rulebook, but that would make all Daemon Weapons Ap3 regardless of shape, and Dante carry a Power Axe, meaning no one is happy really.

*EDIT*

Also, the intent from GW seems to be that the different Power Weapons in the game should be used as their shapes dictate, and for example Typhus Manreaper (Daemon Weapon) was clarified as an Axe, same with Kharn, and the Frost Blade (which without doubt has special rules not found in the rulebook) can be either an Axe or a Sword.
I don't know what RAW is, nor RAI. But to me, it looks like GW tells us that we should look at the model firstly, and unless otherwise stated, use the rules the model suggest. So my Dark Apsotle with an Accursed Crosius would have a Daemon Maul. But is has special rules, just like the Frost blade, so it should be Ap3 i guess by the rulebook?

[KarlPedder]

Again by your argument it becomes impossible to give a non unique special character a master crafted power axe (or spear or maul.) because once you choose the option to master craft their power weapon they become "unusual."

Seriously how many times does this simple point need to be reiterated before the premise that it is not unusual because of being master crafted will be accepted................

Dante strikes at I1 that may not suit how you like to use him or how you see him the fluff it doesn't change it and every attempt to argue it does is just people clutching at straws to justify using the better set of rules it's essentially cheating.....

[Navar]

This makes me wonder about Daemon Weapons. They have three rules, Two-handed, Power Weapon, and the daemon bit which depends on the mark of the wearer. They are hardly unique, and as the entry for a Lord with no Mark says, they may be in the form of a "wicked scimitar, great broadsword, or simply an axe or mace."
You can have as many Daemon Weapons as you have Lords, so it is definitely not a unique piece of gear as Dantes axes is, or the Axe Morkai or any of the other named, one-of-a-kind weapons many special characters have.

However, GW might have meant unique as in "is only available to one or very few units in the game", which would make for example a Dire Sword Ap 3 because of the name, not the shape, same with Bone Swords. They could be called 'Bone Axes', but they would still be Ap like a sword because they have a different name from simply "Power Weapon". I would hardly call Bone Swords unique, but they do have special rules in addition to being Power Swords.

I could have 8 Dire Swords in an Eldar army, all on generic non-special-models. Is a weapon like that unique or not? I would hardly call them unique, and the meaning of the word really is 'one of a kind'. I can only ever include one of Dantes axe in an army, so even though it's just a basic Power Weapon with the Master Crafted rule (making it not unique rule-wise, and clearly an Axe), it is unique setting-wise, meaning it could look like anything, and unless GW states otherwise, it has Ap3.

I simply don't how what GW mean by unique. I think they mean that the specific rules for the weapon should only be found in a single codex, and not in the rulebook, but that would make all Daemon Weapons Ap3 regardless of shape, and Dante carry a Power Axe, meaning no one is happy really.

The BGB doesn't say "Unique weapons" It says "Weapons with one or more Unique rules."

[Frgt/10]

This makes me wonder about Daemon Weapons. They have three rules, Two-handed, Power Weapon, and the daemon bit which depends on the mark of the wearer. They are hardly unique, and as the entry for a Lord with no Mark says, they may be in the form of a "wicked scimitar, great broadsword, or simply an axe or mace."
You can have as many Daemon Weapons as you have Lords, so it is definitely not a unique piece of gear as Dantes axes is, or the Axe Morkai or any of the other named, one-of-a-kind weapons many special characters have.

However, GW might have meant unique as in "is only available to one or very few units in the game", which would make for example a Dire Sword Ap 3 because of the name, not the shape, same with Bone Swords. They could be called 'Bone Axes', but they would still be Ap like a sword because they have a different name from simply "Power Weapon". I would hardly call Bone Swords unique, but they do have special rules in addition to being Power Swords.

I could have 8 Dire Swords in an Eldar army, all on generic non-special-models. Is a weapon like that unique or not? I would hardly call them unique, and the meaning of the word really is 'one of a kind'. I can only ever include one of Dantes axe in an army, so even though it's just a basic Power Weapon with the Master Crafted rule (making it not unique rule-wise, and clearly an Axe), it is unique setting-wise, meaning it could look like anything, and unless GW states otherwise, it has Ap3.

I simply don't how what GW mean by unique. I think they mean that the specific rules for the weapon should only be found in a single codex, and not in the rulebook, but that would make all Daemon Weapons Ap3 regardless of shape, and Dante carry a Power Axe, meaning no one is happy really.

*EDIT*

Also, the intent from GW seems to be that the different Power Weapons in the game should be used as their shapes dictate, and for example Typhus Manreaper (Daemon Weapon) was clarified as an Axe, same with Kharn, and the Frost Blade (which without doubt has special rules not found in the rulebook) can be either an Axe or a Sword.
I don't know what RAW is, nor RAI. But to me, it looks like GW tells us that we should look at the model firstly, and unless otherwise stated, use the rules the model suggest. So my Dark Apsotle with an Accursed Crosius would have a Daemon Maul. But is has special rules, just like the Frost blade, so it should be Ap3 i guess by the rulebook?

I'd say that dire swords and demon weapons are both ap3 despite them coming in different sizes and shapes.
bone swords on the other hand aren't power weapons at all; they just 'ignore armour saves' which they still continue to do.

[ehlijen]

I'd say that dire swords and demon weapons are both ap3 despite them coming in different sizes and shapes.
bone swords on the other hand aren't power weapons at all; they just 'ignore armour saves' which they still continue to do.

As do mirror swords, Strakan's and Lelith's fists as well as Farsight's dawn blade. Anyone else got any more?

[totgeboren]

I'd say that dire swords and demon weapons are both ap3 despite them coming in different sizes and shapes.
bone swords on the other hand aren't power weapons at all; they just 'ignore armour saves' which they still continue to do.

You are probably right, but then why did they have to clarify that Typhus Manreaper (a Daemon Weapon) is in fact an Axe, or that a Frost Blade can be either an Axe or a Sword? Remember that the only two official Daemon Weapons in the game is Typhus scythe and Abbadons Sword, and Frost Blades come in both the axe and sword variant.

So far all official models with axes or axe-like weapons have had the fact specified in the FAQ, the only weapons that we are confused about are the converted or home-made ones, to which I think GW thinks we should use the "look at the model" approach, which they themselves have done to all their models, special rules or not.

As do mirror swords, Strakan's and Lelith's fists as well as Farsight's dawn blade. Anyone else got any more?

Straken still counts as an MC in close combat right? So then he should have Ap2.

[Temaer]

As do mirror swords, Strakan's and Lelith's fists as well as Farsight's dawn blade. Anyone else got any more?

Yriel's Spear of Twilight does as well, making him comparatively better....although I am struggling to come up with a good delivery system....

[Frgt/10]

As do mirror swords, Strakan's and Lelith's fists as well as Farsight's dawn blade. Anyone else got any more?

Captain Tycho ignores armour saves. Feugan hits at +1 Str as a MC so is AP2

[bringerofdecay]

The heading for both power weapons and force weapons states that if the weapon in question has no special rules (ie master crafted) then it falls in to one of the 3 categories (sword, axe or stave) otherwise you treat it as an unusual weapon which is an ap3 melee weapon (in addition to it's special rules), ergo unless specifically erratad dante's axe is not a power axe, it is a power weapon with additional special rules (it is not simply a 'power weapon') and as such follows the unusual power weapons rule.

I don't see how you can possibly argue against this.

[Lantern]

Guys, why not create a separate thread in the rules section so as not to de-rail this thread.

[Navar]

The heading for both power weapons and force weapons states that if the weapon in question has no special rules (ie master crafted) then it falls in to one of the 3 categories (sword, axe or stave) otherwise you treat it as an unusual weapon which is an ap3 melee weapon (in addition to it's special rules), ergo unless specifically erratad dante's axe is not a power axe, it is a power weapon with additional special rules (it is not simply a 'power weapon') and as such follows the unusual power weapons rule.

I don't see how you can possibly argue against this.

Because the next section that describes what it takes to be an unusual power weapon states that it has to have "one or more Unique Rules." Master Crafted clearly isn't a Unique rule. Emphysis mine.

I agree that it is ambiguous, but the only way to read that page so that the entire page makes sense is to have his Axe be a power axe. Otherwise it is impossible to have an IC with a Master Crafted Power Axe.

[logan054]

After such poor effort on releasing faqs that could possibly bring armies to some balance they came up with this piece of sh#$!t....

Anyone noticed Abaddon and Draigo are AP3 now...? The arch villain and the arch hero are gonna get smashed in the face by some power fist swinging terminator whose save they cannot pass. Those faqs are the work of amateurs

and I am really digging the idea with the pitchforks!!

I dunno, I'm kinda happy about, it does mean if someone use Abbaddon or Draigo against me they won't just wipe out whole units now, it was kinda lame.

[Scammel]

They'll still wipe out whole units, just not necessarily Terminators. Besides, I'd bet me beeswax that Drach'nyen will get AP2 or even 1 come a month's time.

[Sythica]

Actually, it would be very possible for a IC to have a master-crafted power axe. Going forward, we know that the term power "weapon" will not be used. All it takes is a printed codex or FAQ to say that a IC has a master crafted power axe. Until Dante get's FAQ'd, he has a master crafted power weapon.