Tactica Daemonica - 6th Ed

[Alsiaie]

So now that we know that our chariots are vehicles in their own right can anyone tell me where to find each ones AV, Type & Hull points?

All I can find is the Slaanesh one.

None of them are vehicles except the slaanesh ones in the WD update. The slaanesh chariot in the core codex along with the rest are also still legal. None of them in the core codex use chariot rules in the BRB

[WeeDawgNYC]

Your wrong. Clearly states that all chariots are vehicles & can become immobilized as well like any vehicle.

[Alsiaie]

That's right. All models with the chariot unit type are vehicles according to the BRB. The 'chariots' in the codex are not given the Chariot unit type. They're not listed in the BRB's reference index either.

A chariot of tzeentch replaces the Infantry unit type to Jetbike.
A chariot of slaanesh replaces the Infantry unit type to Cavalry.
A chariot of Khorne remains unchanged. It has the Infantry unit type.

Jetbikes are not chariots. Cavalry are not chariots. Infantry are not chariots. Because none of them are vehicles.

So in conclusion, none of them were actually given the Chariot unit type. In the BRB, chariot is a vehicle sub-type. similar to flyer, fast, skimmer etc. The chariots in the codex need to be a vehicle first in order to have a vehicle type. You will also notice that in the WD update, chariot is listed under their unit type to support this. None of the units in the core codex have any of these rules, unit types or are vehicles. Their name is irrelevant. Daemons are rumored to get a new codex when WHFB gets theirs within the next 8 months or so. I feel confident that all the chariots will be vehicles in the new book.

[WeeDawgNYC]

I see your point now.

[CrownAxe]

Oopsie daisys.

[Vestigialante]

We aren't inventing reasons. Good luck deep striking all three exalted chariots onto the board safely, getting all three to survive the negligible amount of shooting required to significantly diminish their effectiveness since they're impossible to hide, and then maneuvering them around terrain such that you are able to charge and get all three of those massive bases into base contact with something. I imagine you'll pull it off... never.

Screamers kill and average 13.5 MEQ on the charge thanks to HoW, BTW. They also have an awesome shooting attack on the turboboost that can be used to get them out of sight.

I contend that if you haven't yet figured out how to effectively deepstrike a large squad, particularly one that uses oblong bases that can be abused to dodge terrain on a landing, that daemons likely aren't your cup of tea. The point of chariots is that they don't need to be hidden. They are there to do massive damage if left unmolested, forcing your opponent to focus their fire on them rather than other parts of your force. The 5+ invulnerable save is particularly useful in protecting your investment as well.

As for the inability to get all three chariots in base contact... you realize that you don't need to get all three in base contact, right? That's not how assaulting with a unit works.

As for vulnerability to shooting:
It takes 81 bolter shots on average to kill a unit of screamers, 108 if they do nothing but turbo-boost all game. No amount of bolter shots will do anything to a chariot from the front or sides.
It takes 60.75 heavy bolter shots to kill a unit of screamers, 81 if they only turbo-boost. It conversely takes 162 heavy bolter shots to eliminate an exalted chariot unit.
It takes 48.6 autocannon shots to kill a unit of screamers, 64.8 if they only turbo-boost. 60.81 for the chariots.
It takes 48.6 plasma shots to kill a unit of screamers, 64.8 if they only turbo-boost. 45.6 to eliminate the chariots.
It takes 48.6 missile shots to kill a unit of screamers, 64.8 if they only turbo-boost. 40.9 for the chariots.
It takes 48.6 lascannon shots to kill a unit of screamers, 64.8 if they only turbo-boost. 22.72 for the chariots.

The chariots are vehicles, and subject to the vulnerabilities of being such, sure. To say that screamers are 100% better in every situation is a bit off, however. In addition, your screamers are losing effectiveness at a similar rate as you lose them to shooting. Chariots do indeed have a place in the grand machine that is a daemon army, and I wouldn't just write them off without some due consideration.

[Magicafiend]

@ Jospoon
Can someone explain why people love slaanesh princes with breath and pavane now? It seems like a bit of a waste as you can't use pavane to bring models into range for your own breath. You would have to use 1 DP's pavanne to clump them and the second DP's breath to flame them. It seems more efficient to use flamers and leave the pavanne princes without breath.

[Alsiaie]

@ Jospoon
Can someone explain why people love slaanesh princes with breath and pavane now? It seems like a bit of a waste as you can't use pavane to bring models into range for your own breath. You would have to use 1 DP's pavanne to clump them and the second DP's breath to flame them. It seems more efficient to use flamers and leave the pavanne princes without breath.

I was thinking about this too. Pavine and breath are used at the same time. Not any different than a lash sorcerer in a unit. However Jospoon is using a pair. It's a great compliment when used together as one entity. I assume his logic is that both DPs are doing the same action together regardless of the target. That means two vector strikes or Two breaths on one unit. It's actually effective and outside the box. Vector does burn up a shooting attack, but you can also do x2 vector, 1 pavine and 1 breath. In any case, both together have wonderful synergy. I give you thumbs up for doing something that works well outside the internet cloud of how to play daemons. I'd be curious how not having a 4++ save pans out too.

[Mchagen]

As for the inability to get all three chariots in base contact... you realize that you don't need to get all three in base contact, right? That's not how assaulting with a unit works.

They may not need to be in base for the rider to attack, but if they aren't in base they do not receive hammer of wrath hits, which renders the chariot fairly useless. They also do not get a pile-in move before the initiative 10 hammer of wrath. Therefore, it is highly possible for some of the chariots being unable to deliver HoW hits in a squadron considering their large base sizes.

Not realizing this makes me assume two possibilities, most of your chariot list is theory crafting and/or you've been playing the hammer of wrath rules incorrectly, because I can guarantee that not getting all those large bases in contact will happen. Especially with random charge ranges where you barely make it into combat with one or two out of three.

[CrownAxe]

@ Jospoon
Can someone explain why people love slaanesh princes with breath and pavane now? It seems like a bit of a waste as you can't use pavane to bring models into range for your own breath. You would have to use 1 DP's pavanne to clump them and the second DP's breath to flame them. It seems more efficient to use flamers and leave the pavanne princes without breath.

You can use it for wound allocation. Since pavane triggers and moves on hit it's done before wound allocation so you can move models to the front of the unit to take wounds first.

[Alsiaie]

You can use it for wound allocation. Since pavane triggers and moves on hit it's done before wound allocation so you can move models to the front of the unit to take wounds first.

This is a great idea. Well done!

[blackroyal]

None of them are vehicles except the slaanesh ones in the WD update. The slaanesh chariot in the core codex along with the rest are also still legal. None of them in the core codex use chariot rules in the BRB

I'd make a case for the box on pg. 6 of the update that says "heralds of Slaanesh may take" voids the codex options.

[Your Mum Rang]

Hey guys. Simple question:

5 Fiends or 10 Seekers?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

In 6th edition, I think I'd go with the Fiends, partially because they're more resistant to overwatch, but also because they're beasts instead of cavalry so can go upstairs and aren't affected by difficult terrain (which is dangerous for Seekers).

[Alsiaie]

Hey guys. Simple question:

5 Fiends or 10 Seekers?

Sometimes you have to ask yourself $125 or $60? Hopefully you have had both and money isn't an issue. I would say seekers though. WAY more overall attacks, casualties aside. They're tank hunters too with rending. Over watch doesn't always become a factorthen . I don't know the mathammer on 15 S5 rending vs 40 S3 rending against AV10 though. Maybe a wash against tanks?

[Your Mum Rang]

I agree with the Seekers mainly because I can cram my Elites full of 3x3 Flamers.

[Alsiaie]

I agree with the Seekers mainly because I can cram my Elites full of 3x3 Flamers.

You can say the opposite with taking fiends and craming screamers. I don't think there's a correct answer. You can also balance all 4 choices.

[CrownAxe]

Sometimes you have to ask yourself $125 or $60? Hopefully you have had both and money isn't an issue. I would say seekers though. WAY more overall attacks, casualties aside. They're tank hunters too with rending. Over watch doesn't always become a factorthen . I don't know the mathammer on 15 S5 rending vs 40 S3 rending against AV10 though. Maybe a wash against tanks?

I built my 10 fiends for $50.

Also Fiends have 5 attacks base, so they get 30 S5 attacks on the charge.

[Alsiaie]

What do you use for fiends then? The original model is $25 each.

[CrownAxe]

What do you use for fiends then? The original model is $25 each.

10 O&G Spider Riders, 10 Demonettes

Green stuffed Demonette torsos to the spiders. The boxes were 25 and 22 respectively when i bought them. now its like 35 and 29 for them.